Thursday, August 4, 2011

Water: Is it Good or Bad?


I think it’s the nature of the human psyche to be somewhat lazy. By lazy I mean wanting to cling onto simple black and white concepts, declare “case closed,” and systematically file everything into good and bad categories.

In the world of nutrition this laziness abounds. It seems everyone wants to create “good guys” and “bad guys” out of different foods, different substances, different therapies, different medications. But you really can’t do that. And when you do file things into categories that are either “always good” or “always bad” you commit intellectual suicide to a certain degree.

I have been thoroughly punished by this type of mindset just like anyone else. Many years ago I thought water “had” to be good for you. Pure, crystal clear water. The genesis of life on earth. It was the essence of purity and wholesomeness – the more the better.

Later, I came across some opposing views on water, and noticed that I was having ill effects from drinking it, such as indigestion. I went so far as to write an article pointing out this error (Oops, I Did it Again), and jumped on the other side of the water debate. First, water was always good. And now, water was not preferable to other fluids that contained electrolytes and carbohydrates – like milk and fresh juices.

But then I improved my health by ending an overly-restricted diet that got me into trouble (one could call it a “Weston A. Price version of a low-carb diet”), and no longer had any issues with water at all. I began drinking tons of it again. I thrived on it. Water was back on the “water is good for you list.” I’m not the only one to flip flop back and forth on water. Mercola has done the same recently.

The problem was trying to put water into a category as good and bad. You can’t do that – not even with something as simple as water. Maybe you could do that with cyanide or DDT or movies that were not made in the 1980’s, or Room 304 at the McClure Hotel in Wheeling, West Virginia, but not all common foods.

Anyway, on to what I mean, and why water can be extremely good or extremely bad depending on the circumstance.

Water, quite simply, is a solvent. Salt and sugar dissolve in water. When you drink water, you urinate or sweat it out later and it is contains a lot more sugar, minerals, and electrolytes than it did when it went in. Water washes all that out.

As Ray Peat has written, those with a low metabolic rate have trouble storing adequate amounts of glycogen and often have a tendency towards hypoglycemia. Likewise, they have a hell of a hard time retaining electrolytes and other minerals like magnesium. Both hyponatremia (low electrolytes) and hypoglycemia (low sugar) can induce things like migraines, seizures, headaches, anxiety attacks, anger and aggression, frequent urination (polyuria), vomiting, nighttime urination and bedwetting in children (nocturia), night terrors and nightmares, and a long list of other complaints – all of which are serious stressors. In fact, as I pointed out in an argument I had with a completely uninformed person earlier this year who was encouraging someone with low blood sugar seizures to drink lots of water – giving large quantities of water to an infant can induce a seizure on the spot.

Reading all this, you would think water was, generally-speaking, a negative. Quite the contrary. The fact that it can wash excess salt and sugar out of the system is wonderful for those who have TOO MUCH SALT AND SUGAR in their systems. As I’m finding with my investigation of Challen Waychoff, who tracks these things with a conductivity meter (which measures electrolytes basically) and refractometer (that measures all dissolved particles in the urine), most people have very high levels of sugar and salt and get the most benefit from lowering these levels, not raising them.

Of the waters, distilled water – completely devoid of minerals and thus much more potent for stripping salts and sugars out of the body, is so powerful that Challen named his company “Heavenly Water.” But even someone who calls water “heavenly” knows the power of water used in the wrong context. That wrong context is of course, when given to someone with a tendency towards hypoglycemia and hyponatremia (and I’ve noticed that many who do, have a natural aversion to drinking water, but often drink tons of it anyway due to bad advice given from the mainstream - the mainstream obsession with water runs deeper than freakin' Lake Baikal).

But hey, even most practitioners of the RBTI don’t get this at all. Poor 180 follower Sheila, who has one of the most obvious cases of chronic hypoglycemia I can think of (cold hands and feet between meals, brain fog, waking up in the wee hours of the morning, nocturia so bad that she can’t go to bed until after midnight after she’s finally quit peeing every 5 minutes), was told by someone practicing RBTI in Europe to drink 5 LITERS of water every day. This, of course, made all of her problems exponentially worse. 5 ounces of water is probably plenty for someone with severe hypoglycemia – until of course they overcome that condition – at which point they need to drink more and take advantage of water’s purifying effects.

This is why the refractometer I wrote about recently is such a powerful tool. When the reading drops below 1.5, it is an indication that the solutes in the urine have dropped too low. In plain English, the body is lacking adequate salt and sugar to perform basic functions. This is one of the greatest stressors the body can experience. The worst thing you could do in this situation is drink a big glass of water (or other drinks that lack sugar, like diet soda or tea). It would be much healthier to rush to the nearest fast food establishment and drink a Mountain Dew. Drinking antifreeze would probably be healthier than drinking water in that circumstance.

Once you realize that whether or not something is healthy is circumstantial, it opens things up to a whole new world of possibilities.

Anyway, this is why I KNOW what Challen Waychoff is doing up in Wheeling is, at the very least, a huge step in the right direction in the medical use of nutrition. Instead of giving blanket recommendations to all of society based on the likelihood of more than 50% of people benefitting from it (while a portion of the population is decimated by the same advice), he looks at a person’s specific body chemistry and comes up with a very precise program for rebalancing that body chemistry. It is Ayurveda on steroids. And I believe that time and experience will prove to me that this works as well as or better than any non-specific nutrition guidance currently being given anywhere on earth - even with its Frankenfood-o-philia. 

There will always be general information. And as a writer, that will probably always be my specialty. But there are certainly circumstances that demand much more precision, careful monitoring, and fine-tuned manipulation. If only mainstream medicine could have open-mindedness to such as concept, targeting the diet and lifestyle root causes and effects of abnormalities in diagnostic tests as opposed to going first to medications to strong-arm the numbers back into “healthy” ranges... Sniffle, sniffle.

Instead we are all told…

Don’t eat red meat
Nuts and whole grains are good for you
Milk does a body good
Saturated fat is bad (Keep in mind there are over 30 types of saturated fat and each is unique, but I digress)

And dozens of other things. Including, none other than…

“Drink 8, 8-ounce glasses of water daily.”

I'm not saying drinking water is bad.  I'm not saying drinking water is good.  I'm saying that telling everyone to drink water without having any knowledge about their health, body chemistry, and metabolism is stupid. 



120 comments:

  1. Hi Matt, I like the idea of specificity and tailoring advice to one's unique needs. Chinese medicine kinda does that, but with different indices for what ails you.

    One thing I noticed in the comments to the last few posts - the idea that nuts and pork are no-no foods. With WAP, they say not to eat nuts unless you properly prepare them by soaking and drying. Have you or Challen noticed a difference in the numbers if nuts are "properly prepared" or if pork is "pasture raised" rather than confinement fed?

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  2. Jon Lovitz says it better:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJbfBww4fKs

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  3. @Danyelle, mmmmmm, butter. :) Surely, butter is on the "always good" list! Matt, great article, amusing, yet very imformative. Thanks

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  4. Cool man- glad to see you back after radio silence for a week and some.

    I definitely have noticed times when water seems like the exact wrong thing to consume. Sometimes when I'm super hungry, a tall glass of water just upsets my stomach and makes me feel lousy, and some solid food does the trick.

    About making final judgments, Frank Forencich mentions that this is a good way to create stress, since reality will come knock knock knocking with its inevitable counter-argument, and inflexibility snaps where flexibility bends. And from Ran Prieur:

    'An anthropologist once asked a native what the earth stands on. The native said, it's on the back of an elephant, and the elephant stands on the back of a turtle. And what does the turtle stand on? Another turtle. And that turtle? Another turtle. The anthropologist concluded, "It's turtles all the way down," and maybe we think that native is a fool. But I think he's wise and was trying to teach the Westerner something. What's foolish is the idea that there's a final cause, or a final truth, or a final anything. "Final" is just a command: Stop looking.'
    ranprieur.com/ essays/ mathres.html

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  5. So high levels of water consumption and urination, that are commonly associated with diabetes, may actually be a hypoglycemic reaction?

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  6. Hey Matt great article! I had a question about acne (even though it's not really related to this article). Do you have any recommendations as to getting rid of it? I've got it all over my shoulders and back, it really only started after I got off of low carb (about 10 months ago).

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  7. I'm not trying to be contrary, but from what I understand, sugar is not secreted through urine or sweat due to increased water consumption.

    But yeah I agree that the amount of water one should drink is situational.

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  8. Is a refractometer the only way of knowing if water consumption (and how much of it) is what you need?

    Too much salt and sugar= drink water.
    Not enough salt and sugar= avoid/ reduce water intake.

    Makes sense.

    What do people do who are low in salt and sugar when they want a drink?... something like juice or milk?

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  9. Hey Matt,

    Great article! You say that there are over 30 different kinds of saturated fat...Is every kind beneficial to us? Since saturated fat is better for us than polyunsaturated fat (in general), is that with regards to every kind of the 30+ saturated fats? Thanks.

    Brandon

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  10. Haven't read this yet, but just glad you weren't really eaten by a bear!

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  11. Hey Matt

    You end the Anti-water article with: "May 2010 Update - This post is idiotic. Drink water and lots of it!!!". Maybe it's time to update again with something more balanced and moderate? haha

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  12. "Ah eats when Ah'm hungry

    Ah drinks when Ah'm dry

    And if moonshine don't kill me

    Ah'll live till Ah die!"

    Irish Ballad - The Moonshiner

    Don't this apply in Challen Country?

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  13. This is an important topic.

    I hope many read it, and pass on this valuable information. :)

    Betty

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  14. Ahhh...so drinking a gallon of water every day as a hypoglycemic pregnant woman *wasn't* a good idea? That and the high fat, high protein, low carb, no sugar diet?

    No wonder I felt like crap the whole time.

    What should hypoglycemics do if they find themselves constantly thirsty?

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  15. @Lorelei--I'm glad too, but honestly, bear maulings are so uncommon and always news-worthy: after my first shock reaction to that comment, I had to cry 'bs.' That was probably the most tasteless comment I've ever seen on here, and there's been some competition.

    Kelly above--that's a great question.

    Matt--welcome back! So, are you still with Challen? At one point, you refer to him as being at a distance. I'm curious where you think you're going with this all now, and looking forward to more directed discussion.

    I'm always striving for 'no absolutes' (Great comment, Rob A)--perhaps their perennial attractiveness is part of that human laziness you mentioned.
    Where do the 'no' foods land with this kind of 'no absolutes?'

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  16. I was sure it was a fake comment too, but still, gave me a temporary burst of freak out!

    So, Matt, is distilled water always the water of choice, whether lemonified (ha) or not? And the best source for such water would be? I would be loath to buy gazillions of plasticky bottles of water. How about RO water?

    And is it just for drinking? What about cooking, etc?

    Daynelle says it all for me.

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  17. Wow,it sounds too complicated but is it?Matt,how you feeling following Challen's advice?Explain to us what your eating,drinking etc.Is there any restrictions to meat,fat or carb amounts?If a food is on the yes list are they free foods and have little impact on the readings?

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  18. Matt ~

    Welcome back from vacation. :-) Looking forward to your further writings.

    Will you be addressing any of the questions brought up in the previous sections?

    They are regarding, but not limited to: various discrepancies and inaccurate/missing information, including inconsistencies in how the refractometer supposedly works to "measure all dissolves particles in the urine", the absence of sugar in any non-diabetic person's urine, the validity of the medical diagnoses you're referencing, the vagueness of the RBTI as practiced by Challen Waychoff, and many others.

    Do you feel that any of these questions being offered by many of your long-time involved and curious readers are worth addressing in-depth?


    Thanks for sharing some of your explorations with us. :-) I think you're right, it does seem like a good idea for everyone to tailor their dietary/hydration approaches according to their individual feelings and health needs.


    Taylor/Hobson

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  19. Matt,

    Excellent. Only thing I can add is this :-)

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  20. One other question - Matt can you explain the sea salt thing in a way that makes sense? I'm still consuming lots'o'salt for adrenals a la Wilson. I crave salt. Can eat it straight off my hand, which to me says I really need it. What have you learned about this so far?

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  21. Wolfstriked,

    Are you aware that the common English usage is to put a space between the punctuation that ends a sentence and the first letter of the next sentence? It is. Doing so would make your posts much easier to read.

    -----

    The post is good. "It depends" is always my favorite answer.

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  22. Moi wrote:
    "William is right. And that was my point with the oreos. A little desert is fine. We had home made and some digiorno pizza. We don't do that every day. The point is to show people it's ok to let go of the fear of food."


    That's what I understood Moi's point to be as well. Not to take anything away from William - the explanation he gave makes good common sense - but Matt, Moi, Pippa, and others have been putting that message out there since RBTI was first introduced here. Matt has commented how Challen says that people take it to extremes - by being too obsessive and restrictive about processed foods. He's even talked about some of the not-so-wholesome foods Challen himself eats (frozen multi-grain waffles, etc.). Also, Moi has commented how Challen eats at restaurants pretty often.

    ...and since the 180 eat the food mantra has been freeing people of their obsession with eating only "healthy" foods for some time now - it shouldn't be too far a mental leap for 180 followers to make as to why Challen would see nothing wrong with (and even the benefit in) having vanilla oreos, banana cakes, or pizza, from time to time.

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  23. I understand that it's frustrating that Matt can't provide answers to all of our RBTI questions just yet. At the same time, I can understand why he doesn't want to say too much too early into his RBTI journey - and before gaining an objective perspective about RBTI. I wouldn't think that 3 weeks would be long enough either. Personally, I would have more confidence in what he has to say about RBTI (and I'm sure he will feel more confident in what he's saying as well) with more research over the next month or two. Of course, it's great getting the play-by-play along the way! :-)

    "What's foolish is the idea that there's a final cause, or a final truth, or a final anything. "Final" is just a command: Stop looking."

    Matt's still looking. Good thing he started looking. Hopefully, he never stops looking and never stops sharing what he finds.

    --

    Rob,

    Loved the quote.

    --

    Ela wrote:
    "Where do the 'no' foods land with this kind of 'no absolutes?"


    Great question.

    I've shared this here before, but I've always believed that as long as the body is getting plenty of what it needs then it can tolerate the things that it doesn't need -- within reason, of course, but the body is very resilient when it's healthy.

    So, in applying that to RBTI... I believe that if your individual nutritional needs are being met - and your numbers are consistently improving or maintaining in the A range - then your body should be and become more and more tolerant to the incidental things in processed foods. And I imagine that would include the occasional "no-no" chocolate treat and even pork, from time to time, if you're one who reaches and maintains at the highest level of health (A range).

    So... I would think that even the 5 "absolute" no-no foods would NOT be locked away in the bad category forever (along with Room 304 lol!) - as they too would be situational, depending on your individual level of health (RBTI numbers) at any given time. Just my thoughts. I could definitely be wrong :-)

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  24. Re: the "Heavenly Water" moniker... I'm wondering if it has anything to do with colonic irrigation?

    Some of Challen's published literature contains interesting quotes on water used for this purpose.


    Quoted from Challen:
    "RULE: It is virtually impossible for the body to heal without washing the colon."

    "RULE: A continual flow of water, 15 to 100 gallons per session, is needed in order to wash the colon."

    "Both of these rules I have proven to be true from the numbers many times. We even have kits that we handle where anyone is able to do colonics in their own home just by adding a few connections to their existing plumbing."



    Exploring further, it appears that Heavenly Water is on record as manufacturing and distributing a speculum device used for colonics.

    It appears that Challen is also publicly registered as a colonic hydrotherapy provider at the instructor level with the I-ACT.

    Are continual-flow high colonics an important part of Challen's RBTI program, and perhaps associated with the "Heavenly Water" title?


    Taylor/Hobson

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  25. I've been meaning to ask about the "green drinks". Anything anyone can share on what the rules and considerations are for those would be great. Thanks.

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  26. Lee-

    Yes, fruit juice is good. Diluted fruit juice might be good too. A little milk is fine too. But you got the idea.

    Adam-

    If the refractometer reading goes up significantly, and the salt reading does not, then what is making the refractometer reading go up? It is sugar. In fact, one 180 follower working with Challen has no salts in her urine but her refractomter reading swings up and down.

    You can definitely make the refractometer reading decrease by drinking more water. All you need to see that is water and a refractomter. My refractometer reading started at 4.3 and was 1.1 today. Challen understands how to eaasily manipulate it, and water consumption is a big player in that.

    Bryan-

    I've thought for a couple of years now that diabetes is a disease of sugar shortage, not excess. Because of insulin resistance or lack of insulin, it is unable to penetrate muscles and liver for use as fuel, causing the body to compensate by increasing sugar levels in the blood. This may be another way of looking at it. The trick will always be getting a type 2's body clearing, storing, and burning sugar properly.

    Brandon-

    I don't know all the different properties of each kind of saturated fat. But they are all unique, and should be treated uniquely. One cannot make a generalization about palmitic acid and expect that to be the same for acetic acid, butyric acid, stearic acid, and the others.

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  27. Ela-

    Yes, back with Challen. I was away in Florida and Nashville for a couple of weeks. I'm back here now and will be staying hopefully for a few months.

    Hawaii Girl-

    A distiller is a couple hundred bucks, but I'm just drinking bottled. I drink no more than a half gallon of distilled per day, and it looks like, with my current body chemistry, I'll be drinking even less.

    Wolfstriked-

    Feeling pretty good and my numbers are coming into line. Today's test was:

    1.1 6.4/6.8 12c 4m 7/8

    I've been travelling and my diet has been pretty crappy (restaurant food, fast food, all kinds of crap). So I was actually quite thrilled that my numbers were good and that I was feeling good too. Turns out I don't have to be very strict at all to still get good results, but that is definitely NOT the case for those who are in a more fragile state health-wise.

    Meat is eaten once per day at lunch (before 2pm) The evening meal is small and contains no meat, heavy food, or sweets/desserts. Usually steamed vegetables with cottage cheese, or a glass of milk, or a soup and toast, or a little salad or something. Breakfast is normal porridges and fruit, eggs, pancakes, waffles, breakfast cereal on occasion. Variety is highly stressed. Consistency of meal times is stressed too. Routines good. Consistency good.

    That's all. There's no rocket science to the diet. The rest is done by the minerals, distilled water, and avoidance of contaminating foods - mostly nuts (no matter how they are prepared), pork (no matter what they eat), and chocolate.

    There's more to it than that, and somme of it is very detailed, but the basics are really easy.

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  28. Taylor-

    Anything water soluble refracts light as is passes through it. That's what the refractometer measures. Dissolve sugar or salt in water, place a few drops on the panel of the refractometer, and the reading goes up in proportion to the amount of solute you dissolve in the water.

    As was shown in the NASA urine analysis that someone else posted, there are all kinds of different sugars in the urine just like Reams stated there was - in normal astronauts, not just diabetics.

    As to the validity of the health problems Challen can supposedly see in the numbers, this is definitely more questionable. But he is very accurate with a great deal of things. He's not a miracle worker or anything, but the question is whether or not his approach to nutrition can out perform other approaches to health problems. I believe it can from what I've seen so far. I need to see more. This is just going to take some time. But I can assure everyone here that it's worth being open and curious about it.

    And about the colonics - yes, all of that is true. He no longer does colon hydrotherapy because of all the liability involved with it, but acknowledges the importance of it. It helps to drop high urine pH's when they are stuck in the overly-alkaline range. Having your urine pH significantly higher than your saliva pH is an indication for a need for a colonic (from what I gather). That's just more of an early thing though. Challen hasn't had any colon irrigation in years.

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  29. AS-

    That's a pretty accurate way to look at it. I'm pretty resilient evidently. I had some crab dip and ate lots of restaurant food but didn't have anything show up in my numbers except eating too much late in the day. Yeah, he busted me on that one for sure. I ate a whole pizza for dinner on Tuesday night!!

    Brock-
    He just juices anything with chlorophyll and drinks 4 ounces of it. He uses it as a pain reliever. Stuff like lettuce, green bell peppers, cabbage, etc. No magic formula or anything. It's not a mandatory part of the program or anything. I haven't had any "green drink."

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  30. There might be something to balancing the amount of water you drink to get an ideal reading on the refractrometer.

    However I don't believe it has to do with sugar levels though.

    Maybe certain foods are more toxic to the body and you excrete those waste products through your kidneys into your urine. So if you eat foods that are on the no list, you'll a higher count in your refractrometer because there are more waste products to be excreted.

    Or certain types of meats with their purines (not sure if right word), if eaten in access create too much uric acid which may affect urine levels for example.

    I know someone who had a near death experience and created a psychological system that was 'revealed' to him at the time on how people work. It's pretty amazing. So Reams could have received something from 'God' or through some type of intuition and interpreted it through his own believe system.

    Anyway so there might be something useful about getting the right levels on the refractrometer, but I think their science and reasoning about why it works may be lacking.

    Adam

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  31. Or maybe a type of food might cause calcium to be leaked from bones and then excreted through the kidneys or something...I have no idea. It could be lots of things.

    But to say it's just measuring sugar levels, I think is inaccurate. No one in the medical community I know of thinks that urine is composed of sugars except Reams and one article on NASA or something.

    Adam

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  32. NO CHOCOLATE? yea how about no. XD i eat 100gr every single day, a kilo per week. and i love it. btw im pure energy, my skin is flawless, have perfect digestion, sleep like a baby and have 7% body fat. secret? 0% veggie crap, 0% fruit crap, 0% restaurant crap, no pufa, no pils, no rancid nuts, no gruten, no coffe, no alcohol, no drugs, variety? fuck variety, i eat the EXACT same food every single day ( my favorite) lots of saturated fat, cheeses, yolks, meat, butter, whole milk, sucrose, and daily 23hr DIF. ah and water if a want it to lots of it, gallons. or not.

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  33. also tons of salt, and peeper with my massive and fatty grain feed steak...

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  34. Sorry to go off-topic...

    But ADAM, would you mind sharing a little bit of your friend's divinely-inspired psychological system?

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  36. MATT -


    3 meals a day is probably sensible if it meets one's daily caloric needs.

    But what about us athletes, for example?
    If I have breakfast around 7am, then go for a run a few hours later, my mind would be obsessing about food until noon - lunchtime.
    And would def not make it until evening after lunch. If I would, I'd, once again, be thinking about nothing but food (which I don't want to do), and wanting to eat the crap out of my fridge by 6pm - dinnertime, a small meal would never cut it - esp not just veggies and a slice or two of bread. A ginormous portion of vegs, about 2 lbs and add to that 4-5 slices of bread, and I might feel satisfied... But go w/o food from noon- 6pm?

    If I was sedentary I wouldn't have a problem though.
    Could one reason be low blood sugar and some fruits in between could help?

    I noticed last night, waking up multiple times due to severe upper-back pain which I've suffered from for 1,5 years now.. Going back asleep is nearly impossible. But last night I finally got up, had a tsp of honey, and lo and behold, less than 10 mins later I fell asleep. I still woke up every time I moved my body due to pain, but I could easily go back to sleep...

    My back issues is one (of a few) reason why I'd like to get in touch with Challen... I've seen 3 different chiropractors for 1,5 years and now they're considering MRI to find out what the problem is (might be a severe inflammation).
    I don't take any pain killers what so ever (my liver is too valuable to me) but I don't want to go on living with this constant pain. No one understands where it stems from, one day I woke up and it was there. And I'm only 28, being an athlete all my life and extremely cautious of my body.

    I did email challen at his home page, but he hasn't responded. Then I emailed you a couple weeks back to see if you could help me get in touch with challen. Living in europe, as a student, my budget is very very limited and couldn't afford calling him directly.

    But for me, this is definately worth a shot.
    Still don't thikn I could manage just 3 meals a day tho..

    >_<


    -Beth

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  38. Matt ~

    Thanks for taking the time to reply. I know you're swamped with a lot of input.

    The NASA urine composition report was a fascinating read. It was compiled in 1971 by an independent contractor/biotech company outside of NASA. (NASA was simply footing the bill.) It was designed to help engineers develop technology to extract drinking water from urine. (Think Costner's pee-jar in 'Waterworld'... except in space.)

    First off, to clarify -- the results of the report don't show 'all kinds of different sugars' in urine, as you said. If you're scanning the report for sugar terms: lactose, sucrose, and other carbohydrates are mentioned in the foreword as outside examples to illustrate how different substances can react in experiments. Only one sugar was reported in the urine: glucose.

    The report defines "the composition of typical human urine, and presents experimental data" on its various properties.

    What do they mean by a "typical" sample? Well, we know it's human. The measurements were made on 16 different 'buckets' of raw urine, each containing forty liters. Each bucket held mixed samples from "20 to 30 male subjects".

    That's all we know about the sample population -- no age, no health status, and no mention of astronauts. (It's unlikely they were astronauts, considering the fact that the research facility was located in Huntington Beach, CA. There were probably a few surfers, though.) It's likely that the test subjects were chosen at random to provide a broad scope for "typical" data.

    So, we know that all numbers shown in the study were derived from an average of the mix of urine coming from (at most) 480 random male subjects. What are the chances of a portion of these subjects being diabetic, and thus having glucose in their urine?

    Let's look at the date: 1971. The Oral Glucose Tolerance Test (current gold standard for spotting diabetes and insulin resistance) wasn't standardized until the late seventies. At the time of this study, diabetes was only spotted through a fasting glucose blood test--it's now notorious for missing many diabetics other than the worst cases. The first glucometer wasn't even invented until two months after this report was published. (Links available to all sources, if you want them let me know.)

    So, even if the report was selecting for healthy, non-diabetic sample dudes, there's a good chance of undiagnosed diabetics slipping into that sample pool.


    (continued below)

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  39. (continued from above, re: NASA urinalysis report)


    Since the report doesn't specify for the health of said sample dudes, let's look at the general 1970s rate of diabetes diagnoses from the Framingham study: 2.7% for men. That points to a possible group of 13 guys with sugar in their urine thrown into the mix. Add the reality of undiagnosed diabetics at the time, it's very probably a higher number than thirteen.

    So does it make sense that 'glucose' showed up on the list of ingredients present in a vat of 480 dudes' urine? Yes. The sugar glucose is excreted in human urine -- when it happens, it's called glycosuria, and/or a sign of diabetes mellitus.

    "Typical urine" in the context of this report does not mean "all people typically have some glucose in their urine". This study was an average of a mix of samples, both healthy and diabetic. The report is in no way 'proof' that all people have sugar in their urine.

    Why is this relevant to the discussion of RBTI and refractometers? Because not all people are diabetic/glucose-excretors.

    If the refractometer (according to RBTI) is supposed to consistently measure the "sugars thrown out" in all people's urine, but a majority of us in fact are not diabetic/do not have sugar in our urine... then what, exactly, is the refractometer measuring?

    Whatever it is, it's apparently not sugar. This is stuff to be curious about.

    Especially if the entire equation/dietary approach hinges on the number from the refractometer.


    Taylor/Hobson

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  40. Taylor/Hobson, thank you so much for your careful and considered posts. I, for one, really appreciate the time and research effort that goes into them.

    You provide much food for thought.

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  41. Matt,
    Healthy people don't have a variety of sugars in their urine. And i doubt that even diabetics have anything other than glucose in their urine.
    It's cool, if the RBTI methods helps you and if you can predict certain things from reading your "numbers".
    But I think you should stop writting about those wild theories as if they were scientific facts. Healthy people don't have sugar in their urine, insulin isn't a salt, and where is the evidence that destilled water strips sugar out of the body?
    It's probably also a good idea to do some own research on the points of criticism that have been brought up for discussion instead of just paraphrasing the RBTI people.

    You're articles and theories used to be interesting and the debates here were often very helpfull. This was because you based your theories on science, and eventhough you interpreted things in a different way, we had something objective as a foundation for our discussions and fights.
    But it has become impossible to have a rational discussion. You can only choose between accepting this mumbo-jumbo and believing the stories of a hand full of people or beeing called a stupid troublemaker.

    I think it's really sad, because you have lost almost all the poeple who contributed something meaningfull here in the past. This is no longer a place for discussions about health and nutrition, it's a cult.

    I really hope this is only a short episode like so many other times in the past.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anon-Beth with the back problem: you might want to check out books by Dr. John Sarno like "Healing Back Pain-the Mind-Body Connection". He says that most back pain....and probably many other kinds of pain are actually originating in the mind (psychosomatic) as a distraction for unconscious or subconscious rage, anger, or emotional pain. The pain is 'real'...possibly oxygen or blood being restricted from the various areas. Believing that the pain originated in the mind is the start of being able to tell your mind to stop it. Some people are more inclined to be able to believe that than others. He explains it all very well. The books are available used on Amazon for very little money....sometimes just a dollar and the cost of shipping.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Matt,

    Oooh, you ate crab?! [shaking no-no finger at you] But if Challen didn't detect it, maybe it was imitation crab meat in that crab dip lol! I could almost eat a whole pizza... if it's a thin crust Freschetta - my fav frozen pizza :-)

    All that steak talk made me crave a steak and I had a chuck-eye for dinner Tuesday night - gasp! I know, bad girl for eating meat for dinner. Hey, I told ya I'm a risk-taker lol! BTW, I cooked it until no pink in the middle this time. It definitely wasn't as good as medium-rare lol! How well done does Challen say red meat should be? Is some pink in the middle okay or no? I might have to stick to prime-rib. The slow-roasting taste and texture is much better - well done or not. I may try slow-cooking the others. I have several more in the freezer that I need to do something with lol :-)

    Anyway, wow, your numbers are getting really close and that was fast too. Now yours are definitely better than mine were. But good to know that I could get there pretty quickly too - when/if I decide to go full on protocol based on my numbers.

    I have some peeps who have questions about the lemon water. Gonna post them here cause I figure peeps here might want to know the answers too...

    Did you deviate with your lemon water too? And are people able to stop the lemon water at some point? Do some not do the lemon water at all or only for a short time as needed? What about those who shouldn't be drinking much water at all? No lemon water for them? Wouldn't at least some of them need the lemon? Or perhaps they have similar chemistry not requiring the lemon? You mentioned that you'll be lowering your water intake based on your latest numbers. I would assume that would change your lemon water intake, right? How will that affect the numbers, if at all?

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  44. keep up the good work matt! loving your blog even more now!! RBTI is one of the most interesting topics i've read on your blog and i look forward to reading more :)

    i understand that a lot of your readers want proof and more science to back this up. those are probably your more intelligent readers. as for me, just hearing one story about a woman's cancer being cured and another womans depression and chronic fatigue improve is enough to catch my interest and curiosity. anything/anyone, with that amount of healing power, deserves the attention of anyone interested in health & wellness. i understand people need references, studies, science, long term results, etc to really understand something like this and deem it worthy of their time... but i'm not one of those people. (although i would appreciate some more long term stories, people who've practiced this for more than a year with continuing results) i prefer success stories, experience, and blog posts...like yours!

    not sure i'll ever try RBTI... i don't like jumping in to anything without sitting with it for a while. but if i ever do, you can be sure i'd share my story with all ya'll. my 'major' health issues are cut and dry. and if this RBTI thing actually works my lady cycle will finally regulate itself and my panic attacks will vanish! and THAT will be MY proof. and if it doesn't work for me, oh well... i'll try something else! (even though i've tried pretty much everything i know of)

    i hope everyone can stop every now and then and just be thankful for all the healing methods we are all aware of. whether they work or not, it's all part of our learning journey. all of this information, whether you agree with it or not, is helping each and every one of us grow as humans. i mean, how lucky are we to even be aware of all of this? i am surrounded, every day, by people who don't know anything about their own health/bodies. sometimes i even wish to be in their minds since i can often overthink my own health. but when i sit with it, i'm really thankful for all the knowledge i have about my health.

    ok, that's my rant for the day! hope everyone enjoys their weekend! thanks again matt!! :)

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  45. Hey Matt,
    Thanks for coming back and addressing so directly many of the questions that were brought up. I'm still interested to know about the overall success rate of RBTI, if there is any way of measuring it.

    To everyone,
    I wouldn't be surprised if measuring overall success rates proves to be difficult even with records. My experience talking to holistic/alternative practitioners is that they have their prescribed formulas but there isn't any objective measure of what's being healed.

    I would say this is also true of the medical industry. Next time a doctor prescribes me anything I'm going to ask what's the long-term proven success rate and what studies/data I can reference.

    At least for Matt, I'm interested to know how RBTI is affecting sleep quality, body temps, body comp, bowel movements, blood sugar regulation, energy levels, and general feeling of well-being. A basket set of things like that would be my objective criteria for success.

    But each individual usually has some specific health issue he/she would like to see cleared up. So in that case, most healing therapies, including RBTI would need to be measured subjectively on a case-by-case basis. I.e. I got my energy back or my cancer didn't clear up.

    But to be fair to RBTI, it would be fair to the practitioner to determine whether he/she could help with the problem first, and if not, not take the client or count her in the statistics.

    There'd also be a probability, like I have 85% chance of helping you. So overall the statistics on success rates could be rather complicated.

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  46. Matt,
    Dude, you know I love ya man, and I'll always read your blog no matter what and I appreciate that you're willing to research and experiment with controversial things but at the same time I think Taylor and Jannis have made some good points...

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  47. (off topic)
    Decided to check my temps this morning. They were really low, about 96.3 with highest 96.9 (underarm). My sleep's been off again lately although I don't know what I'm doing wrong/differently.

    Been biking a few times in the past week for the first time in ages. Probably 12 to 15 miles avg a day with hills. Don't know if that's throwing it off, but Christ I am tired of driving all the time.

    Question on bowel movements. Do they need to be consistent or just clean? I've never had regularity the way Sean Croxton and others say you're supposed to. But the last few have been what I would call perfect or near perfect. Solidly formed with little to no TP needed. This despite having a cookie or piece of pie or glass of wine here and there.

    I liken the success to lots of sweet potatoes, wild rice, and corn tortillas. Add a bit of coconut oil to that to make a meat-less taco/wrap thing is pretty damn good.

    Fruit too. Got a Kapalua Gold pineapple at the co-op. Smallish little thing. Wasn't sure if it was gonna be ripe or whatever but when I bit into it holy crap... I'll definitely be getting more.

    Ok, end of thread hijack.

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  48. This is great to hear, because I do not like to drink water unless I'm really thirsty. Most of the time I drink southern not too sweet iced tea. It always seems to quench my thirst much better when it's 111 degrees outside (and yes, it really was that hot here the other day) I always felt guilty though for not forcing myself to drink it.

    Is there a way you can tell if you have low sugar/electrolytes without the fancy gadgets?

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  49. Glycosuria [Wikipedia] is "the excretion of glucose into the urine. Ordinarily, urine contains no glucose because the kidneys are able to reclaim all of the filtered glucose back into the bloodstream. Glycosuria is nearly always caused by elevated blood glucose levels, most commonly due to untreated diabetes mellitus.
    ...
    When the blood glucose level exceeds about 160 – 180 mg/dl, the proximal tubule becomes overwhelmed and begins to excrete glucose in the urine. This point is called the renal threshold of glucose (RTG). Some people, especially children and pregnant women, may have a low RTG (less than 127 mg/dL glucose in blood to have glucosuria).

    Glucose in urine can be identified by Benedict's qualitative test."

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  50. Study: Simple Specific Test for Urine Glucose [PDF]:

    "Typical concentrations of glucose in urine required for positive reaction:
    Tablet copper reduction test : 0.15%
    Benedict's copper reduction test : 0.08%
    Glucose oxidase test : 0.05%
    "

    "Table 2 shows the number of positive tests with the glucose oxidase test, the tablet copper reduction test, and Benedict’s qualitative test obtained on a series of random urines from 352 healthy subjects. It will be seen that many [63] positive reactions (trace) were obtained with Benedict’s test but only 2 positive reactions were obtained with the glucose oxidase test and 3 positive reactions with the tablet copper reduction test. The results of these tests indicated that the urines from healthy subjects which gave trace reactions with Benedict’s test but negative reactions with the glucose oxidase test contained nonglucose reducing substances.

    "Table 3 shows data on 2075 random urines from hospital patients tested with the glucose oxidase test and Benedict’s qualitative test. It can be seen that 1423 urines were negative with both tests. Approximately one- fourth of all of the urines (571 out of 2075) gave trace reactions with Benedict’s test but only 19 of these urines also gave a positive reaction with the glucose oxidase test. As with urines from healthy subjects the application of confirmatory tests to urines giving a trace reaction with Benedict’s and a negative reaction with the glucose oxidase test showed that the reducing substance in these samples was not glucose."

    "Two of these urines contained over 0.3% ascorbic acid which was a sufficient quantity to account for the positive test. In addition, among these urines were samples containing galactose, lactose, and fructose. There were 36 urine samples that gave positive reactions with the glucose oxidase test and negative reactions with Benedict’s test. In these cases the amount of glucose present was quite small and not sufficient to give a positive Benedict’s test. In these urines glucose was demonstrated by fermentation with baker’s yeast with subsequent disappearance of the positive glucose oxidase test reaction and decrease in total Nelson-Somogyi reducing substance."

    Reducing sugar [Wikipedia]:

    "Benedict's reagent and Fehling's solution are used to test for the presence of a reducing sugar. Many disaccharides, like lactose and maltose, also have a reducing form, as one of the two units may have an open-chain form with an aldehyde group. However, sucrose and trehalose, in which the anomeric carbons of the two units are linked together, are non-reducing disaccharides since neither of the rings is capable of opening. Sugars having acetal or ketal linkages are not reducing sugars, as they do not have free aldehyde chains. They therefore do not react with any of the reducing-sugar test solutions."

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  51. Text-book of human physiology by Leonard Landois, P. Blakiston's, 1904:

    "Normal urine contains traces of dextrose. Small amounts of sugar are present after ingestion of sugar in large amounts (alimentary glycosuria) and also in the presence of fever, after the drinking of beer supplemented by alcohol, occasionally in the exceedingly obese, in neurasthenics, in association with cerebral disease and in advanced age. Glycosuria also occurs as a result of failure in intestinal activity in ill-nourished individuals: and, artificially after ligation of the mesenteric arteries. Dextrosuria of considerable degree is a sign of diabetes mellitus."

    "In applying Molisch's test ... the test discloses the presence of all of the carbohydrates in the urine, under normal circumstances 0.96%, altogether of which 0.1% is grape-sugar [glucose]."

    "Small amounts of glycogen derived from urinary tubules that have undergone glycogenic degeneration have been found by Leube in diabetic urine."

    "After ingestion, the sugars that are most readily decomposed pass with greatest difficulty, while those that are not at all decomposable pass most readily into the urine. If considerable amounts of dextrose are administered, a portion thereof passes into the urine; and a larger amount in cases of diabetes than in health. Ingested levulose does not increase the amount of sugar in the urine of a diabetic patient. The use of starch in considerable amounts does not increase the amount of sugar in the urine in health, although it increases sugar in considerable amount in cases of diabetes. The ingestion of cane-sugar or of milk-sugar in considerable amount causes the passage of small amounts of each into the urine during health. The diabetic, under such circumstances, excretes an increased amount of dextrose. According to Kulz, the cane-sugar ingested by a diabetic patient is decomposed into grape-sugar and fruit-sugar: the latter is consumed in the body, the former in part excreted. The same takes place with milk-sugar."

    "Milk-sugar – lactosuria – is present in the urine of puerperal women, together with glucose and isomaltose, chiefly in connection with milk-stasis."

    "Pentose has, on several occasions, been observed in the urine: pentosuria. Pentose is present in coffee, in many wines, and in varieties of milk and sugar. Ingested pentoses – arabinose, xylose – pass over into the urine."

    "Reichart has called attention to the simultaneous appearance of dextrin in urine containing sugar. Inosite has been found both in cases of diabetes and in cases of polyuria and abluminuria. Traces of it are contained in normal urine."

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  52. In the spirit of RBTI:

    "Seek and Ye Shall Find" (especially with Google)

    Just in case my previous posts were too much to read (I don't blame you), I'll re-iterate the most interesting finding:

    "Molisch's test ... discloses the presence of all of the carbohydrates in the urine, under normal circumstances 0.96%, altogether of which 0.1% is grape-sugar [glucose]."

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  53. Sirch,

    Thank you. I was about to do major searching for some sources myself cause I was thinking there's just no way in hell that the urine of a non-diabetic person, who eats a relatively balanced diet, doesn't contain any sugar. I am no scientist but I know that isn't true from past experience.

    That's the trouble with "scientific" evidence, there's always other so-called "evidence" that appears to contradict it.

    I've said it before and I gotta say it again... I really appreciate your comments here. I read every word.

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  54. Trix,

    Have you gone full on protocol with your numbers? If so, I know it's early but how are you feeling about it so far?

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  55. Keriann,

    "...whether they work or not, it's all part of our learning journey. all of this information, whether you agree with it or not, is helping each and every one of us grow as humans."

    So true. I've learned more from discovering what I was wrong about (and my mistakes) than I have from declaring "case closed" and firmly clinging to what I thought I was right about -- knowledge and growth that I would have surely missed out on had I not kept an open mind. That's not to say that I don't have a healthy amount of skepticism. I do. But luckily, for me, I like thinking outside-the-box. It has served me very well in life. And I'm not going to abandon that due to a lack of "scientific" evidence.

    I seek truth - whatever it is. Truth doesn't need science to back it up - it can stand on its own.

    Also, whether people like it or not, anecdotes are evidence. I personally trust real life results more than "scientific" evidence -- not that anecdotal stories aren't highly individual and therefore subjective. I do realize that. But I also realize that science is humanly flawed in that it is highly biased by self-serving interests and even well-intentioned beliefs -- which is essentially a placebo effect itself.

    That being said, I do understand that some people have that need for scientific explanation/evidence mindset. Not that it's right or wrong. I just can't relate to it because I tend to be fascinated by things that cannot be easily explained by science or otherwise. And I definitely love to challenge my own preconceived views. I always learn something valuable - one way or the other.

    Like Rosenfeltc and Aaron said, others have also brought up some good points to consider - which I personally find very constructive, at least for myself, in forming my own views on this and any topic. So I am definitely interested in hearing what anyone has to say :-)

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  56. It is true that intense sickness and a high fever (and high doses of drugs given to treat the sickness) can cause very high levels of glucose in the blood, and even glucose in the urine, but this is a fairly well recognized consequence of stress. High doses of cortisone (prednisone, etc.) typically cause elevated glucose levels. Cushing's syndrome usually involves hyperglycemia. Normally, this is just a functional response to an excess of glucocorticoids, but studies in dogs suggested that intense and/or prolonged stress can damage the insulin-secreting cells in the pancreas. Dogs had half of their pancreas removed, to increase the burden put on the remaining tissue, and after a large dose of cortisone the dogs became (and remained) diabetic.

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  57. Sirch ~

    Thanks for posting. I love your bent for research. :-)

    Re: the study you quoted... you did notice that it's a report published in 1956 by the makers of Clinistix, correct? They used their in-house lab, and they were looking for data to suggest their test product as the most accurate at the time.


    "From the Miles-Ames Research Laboratory Elkhart, Indiana."

    "Clinistix is a registered trademark of the Ames Company Inc., Elkhart, Indiana."

    "Summary: A simple, specific, sensitive, and speedy test for glucose in urine has been described. This enzymatic test [...] is called Clinistix."



    This type of study is what's otherwise known as 'advertising'.

    They're also using the study to point out the inaccuracy of the rival approach, Benedict's test.

    Anyways -- for the sake of the data, let's try ignoring that fact and try taking this study at face value:

    The reference to the presence of sugars (galactose, lactose, and fructose) was highlighted, so let's look a little closer. What was not highlighted? Samples were drawn from "data on 2075 random urines from hospital patients."

    Do the sugars galactose, lactose, and fructose sometimes show up in some people's in urine? Yes. These rarer instances are known as cases of galactosemia, lactosuria, and/or fructosuria.

    Translation: if you've got consistently detectable amounts of these sugars in your urine, you're either pregnant, lactating, are a premature baby, have an extremely rare genetic metabolic disorder, or otherwise have a significant health problem.

    These instances are by definition rare in a general population -- but what about in a random selection of hospital patients?

    Unless it was a hospital full of healthy folks who just enjoy hanging out in paper gowns eating Jell-O, these were sick people, pregnancies, post-delivery mothers, the elderly, the injured, and ailing children.

    Once again, as supported by this study (and the renal threshold information highlighted from Wikipedia above): presence of these sugars in urine is atypical/not normal.


    Taylor/Hobson

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  58. A search for carbohydrates in urine or sugar in urine with Google Books brings up many results that verify the presence of small amounts of various carbohydrates in healthy, non-diabetic urine.

    Yes, these are old books, but that's because these are the only ones that are completely searchable / read-able because of expired copyright.

    Here's another one:

    Urinary analysis and diagnosis by microscopical and chemical examination‬ By Louis Heitzmann, 1915:

    "There can be little doubt that the urine may contain small amounts of [glucose] under normal conditions, but the amount is so minute, usually less than 0.02%, that a positive reaction is not obtained with the general methods of detecting dextrose.

    Levulose is rarely found in urine, and may be associated with dextrose in diabetes. It has been found in cases of melancholia and impotence, but its exact clinical significance is not understood.

    Lactose is sometimes found in the urine of nursing women, but is usually present in small amount only, rarely more than one per cent.

    Maltose or isomaltose has been found in a number of cases of disease of the pancreas in very small amount, usually not more than 0.1 to 0.5 percent.

    Saccharose may be found after eating large amounts of cane sugar.

    Pentoses are occasionally found in the urine; the more important are rhamnose, arabinose and xylose. Alimentary pentosuria which is found after the ingestion of pentose-containing food, such as apples, plums, cherries and different vegetables, also after trying fruit syrups and malt liquors."

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  59. Thanks AS,

    "That's the trouble with "scientific" evidence, there's always other so-called "evidence" that appears to contradict it."

    I completely agree.

    I set out to prove this theory right and I found evidence to support it.

    Someone else could set out to prove it wrong and also find evidence to support it.

    Although I like to use scientific research sometimes, I think other aspects are more important for the pursuit of truth, e.g. an open mind.

    If nothing else, I'd say that the evidence I found should at least get people to stop trying to discount RBTI based on this one issue of sugar in healthy urine.

    Ultimately, if it works, it works.

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  60. Sirch,

    Absolutely. And I certainly appreciate scientific research as well, but definitely wouldn't trust it over what I see in real life.

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  61. Taylor wrote:
    "This type of study is what's otherwise known as 'advertising'."

    There's always going to be some aspect of a study that can serve a position or theory - one way or the other. Just as you used that aspect to serve your position. All studies have an agenda. Again, whether it be self-serving or even of good intentions. That's not to say that all scientific research/evidence is wrong - even if it is used to "advertise" how great a product is, for example. But science is not immune to the human condition and, to me, that makes for good reason why I'm not easily convinced by scientific evidence - especially in lieu of or that is contrary to real life results.

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  62. Polyuria occurs in diabetics during periods of diabetic ketoacidosis, or hyperglycemia. In a diabetic that has hyperglycemia, the filtered load of glucose (amount of glucose filtered) can exceed the capacity of the kidney tubules to reabsorb glucose, because the transport proteins become saturated. The result is glucose in the urine, with water following the solute and causing polyuria.

    Hyperglycemia also causes water to move out of the cells, with subsequent intracellular dehydration.

    These two mechanisms are why patients presenting to the ER in DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) are treated aggressively with intravenous fluids, because of profound dehydration from fluid shifts and polyuria.

    Keep in mind, I am talking about hyperglycemia, not hypoglycemia.

    If someone euglycemic, or hypoglycemic, they have no mechanism for polyuria, and no reason to restrict reasonable water intake.

    Hyponatremia is another condition that is rare in people consuming normal diets with processed foods, due to the inherent sodium content of the standard American diet.

    Hyponatremia is scene (rarely) in healthy folks who drink excessive water and don't eat while exercising intensely.
    Think.....three quarts of water, a three hour hike on a hot day with no food. We used see these cases frequently in the Grand Canyon, where unsuspecting hikers would hike with only water, and no food. After hemodilution with free water and excessive sodium loss from sweat, the would succumb to hyponatremia, usually presenting with weakness, headache, and in severe cases, seizures.

    Some meds can make one more susceptible to hyponatremia, such as thiazide diuretics, SSRI anti-depressants, and even the drug ecstasy. Other causes, Addison's Disease, hypothyroid, CHF, and cirrhosis.

    Reasonable water restriction in most people is not to be feared.

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  63. Ooops, I meant reasonable water inake.^^^^^

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  64. More random thoughts.So past three days I gave up my ice cream and soda diet and back on optimal but with a twist.This time I have done something that my mind and most peoples mind thinks is "healthy".I decided to replace the carbs of starch that Kwasnieski recommends with veggies and fruit.I have bumped up from 50 to 80gms also.I feel like its vegetarian diet since I go out of my way forcing boxes of brocolli,brussel sprouts and green beans(unfreaking amazing crisped in 4tbsps butter)BUT I eat meat and butter and etc.

    All I can say is this.I am getting flirts left and right and I feel pretty dam amazing.And I am going to the bathroom with those perfect logs....you know the ones;)They come out nice and easy and you only wipe once and think DAM did I even need to wipe???What I am doing is upon awakening I drink a pint of OJ.By the time I get off train I run to work....never had energy to do this as I am usually a zombie crawling in to work and now with that sugar jolt I just start running!!!

    Meals one and two are Optimal diet with those boxes of frozen veggies to make up the other 40gms carbs.

    This has me thinking that maybe all these yrs I have been in mild acidosis.It has so many symptoms,especially the one where weightloss seems impossible.That greyish lok to my skin is gone also.Just look healthy and feel healthy.Sorry for the slight off topic but so many ideas spring from Matt's blog!!!



    Now on to RBTI....Saltwater tanks are kept at high PH measured with PH meter.But there is another factor to test and that is alkalinity.Its the reserve build up of calcium hardness mainly that tells you how well the tank can with stand a sudden increase in acid production.

    "Alkalinity of water refers to the calcium hardness of the water. This is the degree to which a solution's pH can be maintained when acid is added to this medium. Higher alkalinity prevents rapid pH changes."

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  65. Since we are constantly bombarding our bodies with acid producing substances,could the alkalinity diet be just what we all need.I look at Jimmy Moore and other LC gurus and they do not look healthy to me....at all!! This sudden find online of long time Optimal diet users getting stomach cancer was eye opening to me.I wonder if all the reduction of fruits and veggies is the factor.Meat,cream and butter diet is highly acidifying and these LC gurus just push the carbs so low that you can't even take in a good amount of greens for the roughage and the alkalinity boost they bring in fear that your 5gms over your limit.

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  66. Wolfstriked,


    I wonder sometimes if it was the high fat paleo diet crap that caused my hiatel hernia... if i eat too much fat, even saturated fat, it has a weird affect on where my esophagus meets the stomach...

    troy

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  67. So much speculation... If you like RBTI great, if u dont get lost. Clearly the only objective thing is the numbers and trying to keep them in range. Speculate all you commentors want its not leading you ne where closer to 'truths'.

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  68. Taylor,

    After finding better sources, the main take-away for me from that Clinistix "study-advertisement" was the point that the most popular tests for sugar in urine:

    1. test for glucose, but not all carbohydrates

    2. test negative at levels less than about 0.1%

    The wikipedia article says that glucose enters the urine when blood sugar levels are above 160-180 mg/dL and as low as 120 mg/dL for some. It seems that you don't have to be diabetic to have postprandial blood glucose readings in this range so it's possible that non-diabetics are getting glucose in their urine by this same mechanism.

    Also, the book sources & quotes mentioned in my later posts and some that I read but didn't post explicitly state that several different types of sugars are found in healthy urine.

    For me, this is enough to call it plausible.

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  69. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  70. I was the "someone" who posted the NASA report. ...Doesn't really matter, just thought I would point that out...

    The NASA report, completed in 1971, is considered to be one of the definitive analyses of human urine to this very day --some 40 years later. Note that in the report, glucose represents 0.08% to around 0.4% of the total solutes in urine (by weight). When I first read the report I summed up all the other carbohydrates listed independently of glucose. I lost the page I did the calculations on, but if I recall correctly (I might not) they added up to about 0.6% on the high end. Hence, all carbohydrates added together, glucose included, represent approximately 1.0% (on the high end of the range) of the total solutes in urine.

    So, for the sake of argument, incorrectly assuming that sugars represent 1.0% of the solutes in the average, non-diabetic persons urine, means that sugars will have no influence on refractometer readings. Even diabetics, who might have over 3.0% glucose in their urine will not have enough to influence refractometer ratings

    Note that a small percentage of the population will pass glucose in their urine even if they are not diabetic.

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  71. Oh, sorry Sirch. I didn't see your comment where you said:

    "It seems that you don't have to be diabetic to have postprandial blood glucose readings in this range so it's possible that non-diabetics are getting glucose in their urine by this same mechanism."

    If I had I would have left that last sentence about non-diabetics and glucose out of my previous comment to avoid redundancy.

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  72. I didn't get time to last night, but I did some digging this morning, and it didn't take me long to find this...

    I know nothing more about this study than what's in the abstract below - that's all I needed to read. Feel free to pick it apart, if you like. For me, the abstract and the fact that the focus of the study was to measure "urinary sugars" is enough for me to see that, yes, sugars are indeed present and can be measured in the urine of healthy humans.

    Note this was published in 2008.

    ---

    European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009) 63, 653–659; doi:10.1038/ejcn.2008.21; published online 27 February 2008

    Urinary sugars biomarker relates better to extrinsic than to intrinsic sugars intake in a metabolic study with volunteers consuming their normal diet

    ABSTRACT

    Background/Objectives: Sugars in diet are very difficult to measure because of the unreliability of self-reported dietary intake. Sucrose and fructose excreted in urine have been recently suggested as a biomarker for total sugars intake. To further characterize the use of this biomarker, we investigated whether urinary sugars correlated better to extrinsic compared to intrinsic sugars in the diet.

    Subjects/Methods: Seven male and six female healthy participants were living for 30 days in a metabolic suite under strictly controlled conditions consuming their usual diet as assessed beforehand from four consecutive 7-day food diaries kept at home. During the 30-day study, all 24 h urine specimens were collected, validated for their completeness and analysed for sucrose and fructose.

    Results: The mean total sugars intake in the group was 202±69 g day−1. Daily intake of extrinsic, intrinsic and milk sugars contributed 60.1, 34.4 and 5.5%, to the total sugars intake, respectively. The individuals' 30-day mean sugars excretion levels were significantly correlated with the 30-day means of extrinsic sugars (r=0.84; P<0.001) but not with the intrinsic sugars intake (r=0.43; P=0.144). In the regression, only extrinsic sugars intake explained a significant proportion of the variability in sugars excretion (adjusted R2=0.64; P=0.001); daily excretion of 100 mg sucrose and fructose in urine predicted 124 g of extrinsic total sugars in the diet. Using fewer urinary and dietary measurements in the analysis did not change the overall trend of the findings.

    Conclusions: In this group of volunteers, sucrose and fructose in urine better correlated to extrinsic than to intrinsic sugars intake.

    http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v63/n5/abs/ejcn200821a.html

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  73. Troy,I follow high fat because high protein makes me feel lousy in a dying sort of way.Reason for that is my kidneys are bad and so I get very lethargic and with unbearable back pains when I eat protein in excess.With the 70 to 80gms I eat on high fat diet I do not get this negative effect.Are you eating carbs when you do eat alot of fat?What are you eating now mate?

    As for sugar in the urine.I would think that if the body has the "mechanism" to spill over glucose into urine as safety measure then it probably does let a little slip by normally.Too small an amount so doesn't show up on the test strips but RBTI uses a refractometer.This tool seems more precise so possibly it can spot some glucose??

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  74. "One of the possible ways to enable more accurate findings to be gathered is to introduce a biomarker for sugars intake. One possibility is sucrose in urine, because early work showed that small amounts of sucrose cross the small intestine unchanged and are excreted in the urine (21). Most sucrose is absorbed in the small intestine as glucose and fructose and of the two cleavage products of sucrose, blood glucose is under tight insulin control and has an effective uptake mechanism in the renal tubule. Under normal conditions, glucose is not therefore expected to be found in urine samples.

    However, some of the second cleavage product, fructose, was detected in urine following an oral administration of sucrose (22). A study elsewhere has shown that the mean daily excretion of fructose and sucrose after a low-sucrose diet was significantly decreased compared with a basal diet and that sucrose intake was significantly correlated with urinary excretion of sucrose and fructose
    (23). To investigate the utility of urinary sucrose and fructose further as possible biomarkers for total sugar consumption, two studies were conducted in a residential volunteer suite, where dietary intake can be carefully controlled and all samples collected (24). The first study was aimed to assess whether there is a dose-response of sucrose and fructose in urine to increased levels in food, giving a predictive response to varying intakes independent of individual variations. In normal life, individuals do not consume constant diets; hence, the second study investigated the validity of the proposed biomarkers to estimate sugars intake while subjects were on their habitual varying diet, simulating dietary behavior of free-living subjects in a controlled environment."


    Quoted from this study with healthy participants...

    Urinary Sucrose and Fructose as Biomarkers for Sugar Consumption

    Abstract


    The use of 24-hour urinary sucrose and fructose as potential biomarkers for sugars consumption was investigated in two studies of 21 healthy participants living in a volunteer suite where dietary intake was known and all specimens collected. The dose-response was assessed in 12 males using a randomized crossover design of three diets containing constant levels of 63, 143, and 264 g of sugars for 10 days each. Both sugars and sucrose intake were significantly correlated with the sum of sucrose and fructose concentration in urine (0.888; P < 0.001). To assess effects with volunteers consuming their habitual varying diets, seven males and six females were fed their usual diet (assessed beforehand from four consecutive self-completed 7-day food diaries) for 30 days under controlled conditions in the volunteer suite. The mean (±SD) calculated total sugars intake was 202 ± 69 g/d, 41% from sucrose. Mean (±SD) urinary sucrose and fructose were 36.6 ± 16.6 and 61.8 ± 61.3 mg/d, respectively. The sum of sucrose and fructose in urine was significantly correlated with sugars (0.841; P < 0.001) and sucrose intake (0.773; P = 0.002). In the regression, 200 g of sugars intake predicted ∼100 mg of sucrose and fructose in urine. The correlation between individual means of randomized 16 days of sugars intake and 8 days of sugars excretion data (as used in validation studies) remained as high as that obtained with the means of 30-day measurements and the regression estimates were very similar. Twenty-four–hour urinary sucrose and fructose could be grouped into a new category of biomarkers, predictive biomarkers, that can be used in studies determining the structure of dietary measurement error in free living individuals and to relate sugars intake to disease risk.

    FULL TEXT:
    http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/14/5/1287.full

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  75. Urinary Sugars Biomarker
    Solicitation Number: NCI-80153-NG
    Agency: Department of Health and Human Services
    Office: National Institutes of Health
    Location: National Cancer Institute, Office of Acquisitions

    Synopsis:
    Added: Jul 31, 2008 3:55 pm Modified: Aug 01, 2008 1:45 pm

    The National Cancer Institute (NCI), Nutritional Epidemiology Branch plans to procure on a sole source basis, services regarding:

    Urinary Sugars biomarker in the OPEN study urinary samples with Quotient BioResearch, Newmarket Road, Fordham, Cambridgeshire, CB7 5WW, United Kingdom.

    The requirement is based on the need to generate data on the urinary sugars biomarker. The role of dietary sugars in cancer occurrence is largely inconclusive due to unreliability of self- reported intake estimates of sugars. Sugars are major contributors to energy intake; however, their intake is difficult to measure as foods high in sugars are often underreported. Recently, a new dietary biomarker has been developed to asses the validity of self-reported sugars intake. In two metabolic studies under strictly controlled conditions, we found that the amount of sucrose and fructose in 24-hour urine collections was highly correlated to total sugars intake. Results showed that 200 g of total sugars intake predicted about 100 mg of sucrose and fructose in urine.

    However, these findings were based on a small group of subjects; the next step is to investigate the performance of this biomarker in a larger study with free-living individuals in which dietary assessments have been validated with established biomarkers.

    FULL TEXT:
    https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=4d60cf173664dc0b0758d80b97678c54&_cview=0

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  76. Okay, last one, really lol :-)

    --
    International Journal of Obesity 32, 1736-1740 (November 2008) | doi:10.1038/ijo.2008.145

    Urinary sucrose and fructose as biomarkers of sugar consumption: comparison of normal weight and obese volunteers
    Urinary biomarkers of sugar consumption


    Abstract

    Using urinary sugars as a biomarker of consumption, we have previously shown that obese people consume significantly more sugars than individuals of normal weight. However, there is concern that recovery of this biomarker may differ between normal weight and obese individuals. A total of 19 subjects, divided into two groups according to their body mass index (BMI) (normal weight BMI&les;25 kg/m2, n=10; obese BMI&ges;30 kg/m2, n=9), participated in a randomized crossover dietary intervention study of three diets providing 13, 30 and 50% of energy from sugars for 4 days each while living in a volunteer suite.

    The mean urinary sucrose and fructose excretions in 24-h urine increased with increasing sugar consumption over the three dietary periods in both BMI groups and were significantly different between the diets (P<0.01). There was no significant interaction effect of BMI class on the mean urinary excretions of these sugars with different sugar intakes, either as absolute values or expressed as a percentage of total sugar intake. In conclusion, BMI does not affect the validity of sucrose and fructose excretions in 24-h urine collections used as biomarkers to estimate total sugar consumption.

    http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v32/n11/full/ijo2008145a.html

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  77. AS: It is really too early and I ordered but don't as yet have all the supplements Challen recommended.

    Unless one has a serious illness I doubt that it is sustainable long term...especially the strict adherence to the no-no list...like no pork which includes even gelatin capsules which supposedly shows up on the tests...as well as the fact that it is recommended to replace any pots and pans that have been used to cook pork...I doubt I'll be willing to replace my All-Clad etc.

    The lemon water advice doesn't seem like something I can keep up for more than a few weeks...it doesn't seem natural to have to drink a certain number of oz of it every hour til the prescribed amount is consumed.

    But there is a lot I don't know or understand about it and hope Matt can remain objective through his experiences with Challen.

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  78. Trix,

    I hope so too. Thanks for your feedback. Those are some of the same concerns I have as well - with regard to the people I hope to 'guide' in restoring their health with RBTI - assuming it turns out to be a viable healing strategy, of course.

    One of the reasons I inquired this early was to get a feeling for your initial impressions of it. And to see if you were turned off any after consulting with Challen or by your individual protocol. Reason being is that some of the people I hope will benefit from RBTI are likely to be turned off easily by the same concerns you expressed.

    The cookware and no-no foods are no biggie for me. But I agree, many not-seriously-ill people would not be willing to replace cookware and avoid pork and chocolate. As for the cookware, I think I would probably tell (my) people that until or unless it shows in their numbers, not to worry about the cookware. But, ultimately, if it means the difference between better health/better quality of life and not (and even getting worse), then I think they would be willing to get new cookware -- and even avoid pork and the other no-no's.

    The lemon water regimen, though, is definitely becoming a hot topic among them (some of them have been following along here) -- hence all my questions about the lemon water above lol. I agree that it does seem somewhat unnatural. However, I assume (but I could be wrong) that it's only a temporary strategy until the liver is functioning at full throttle again. But... I do worry that it will still be the toughest part for people to stick to.

    Anyway, most of my peeps are willing to give it a fair go if I give it a green light. Of course, I'm not ready to do that just yet. I would want to follow it myself before I would give it a green light - but I'm still not quite there yet either. Gonna give it more time and see how things progress with Matt's RBTI research.

    And I look forward to further feedback from you and the others who are following the RBTI protocol.

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  79. Just re-posting this cause it didn't stick the first time...

    Snippet from an interview with Reams:

    DR. REAMS: We use the urine test. It measures the average blood sugar level by measuring urinary sugar levels. The sugar levels in the urine are relatively stable, so the urine test is superior to the glucose tolerance test in this respect. The urine test is non-stressful to the patient, so stress is eliminated as a factor. And the urine test measures all sugars, not just glucose.
    [Supplemental note: this test employs an ordinary brix refractometer. According to the RBTI, a urine brix reading of 1.5 is perfect when all other equation numbers are perfect.]

    Snippet from a 1977 Reams Lecture:

    DR. REAMS: Low or High blood sugar is not caused by what you eat. It is a malfunction of the pancreas which is a malfunction of the liver. All malfunction of the liver is a mineral deficiency.

    --
    SOURCE: http://www.brixman.com/REAMS/hypoglycemia.htm

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  80. wolfstriked,

    Not eating too much of any kind of food, just pretty much whatever really... High quality foods for the most part, some crap here and there.... I don't follow any kind of macro nutrient guide. I don't douse my food in saturated fat anymore...

    troy

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  81. Sirch ~

    Thanks for sharing those further sources. This is fascinating stuff to chew on.

    I love finding out when my understanding is wrong, and how -- and indeed it was wrong, as shown by the above information. I also spoke with a local university's biochem professor, and asked him to tear down the assertion of "A healthy person does not have any sugar in their urine." I got a thorough schooling. :-)

    Additionally, I got a hands-on demonstration of the Molisch's test. It's a simple yes-no indicator, rather than a quantitative measure; if a solution has any sugar/carbohydrates present, it turns a very pretty shade of purple. It's neat stuff.

    I ammend my understanding: An average healthy person can have sugar(s) in their urine, in varying amounts according to renal threshold and other factors, and often in amounts so small that they are below testing range/hard to spot.

    I doff my cap to you, Sirch. Many thanks. This is what the process of skepticism and open-minded inquiry is all about. :-) We learn something new every day.


    So the question isn't 'How can the refractometer measure sugars if there aren't any?' That's a bogus question, as I've been shown.

    A more applicable question would be, 'How can the refractometer measure small amounts of sugars that are being missed by other tests?' All of these tests are sensitive and chemical in nature, while the refractometer simply shines a light through the urine much like a kaleidoscope. I'm curious as to how this process is more accurate.

    Additionally, I'm wondering how it can measure sugar specifically in the midst of all the other substances? As we've seen, there are many found in urine, in higher amounts than sugar--proteins, amino acids, blood cells, urea, etc.

    We've also seen from the data above that the different sugars can show up in urine for highly variable reasons that even fluctuate drastically throughout the day, in sick and healthy people. I'm wondering how a single number can be universally applied to all of these different cases.

    It's all food for thought. (Very chewy/nerdy.)

    More comments to come when I'm back near a computer. AS, I believe you and I are on the same page more than you'd think. :-)


    Taylor/Hobson

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  82. Taylor, 

    The "changing numbers throughout the day" issue has already been addressed. According to Matt/Challan, the numbers change but the ratios and relationships remain constant. That's why seeing the relationships is the critical skill to RBTI, not just saying "4 is best."

    -------------

    As I've pondered on this RBTI thing I've tried to make sense of how people "remineralize" on crappy foods like Marie Calendar pies. I understand that they take supplements too, and maybe that's the end of it, but I've got this idea rattling in my head I am opening for discussion. 

    What if our idea of minimum daily dosages is wildly high? What if more is not better when it comes to quality? What if most people only need those really high doses because their ability to absorb minerals is in the toilet? What I've noticed about RBTI is that it doesn't focus too much on food quality at all, but merely avoiding two types of food: foods that screw up your chemistry (like pork and shellfish), and foods that have a mechanical or chemical effect on your digestive and waste management systems (chocolate, pepper, seeded berries). 

    And some of the suggestions really seem to jump out at me as balancing ease of digestion vs nutritional density. In particular, how both 100% whole grain flour and 100% white flour are on the "don't abuse" list, but something that's 50/50 of those two substances is on the "eat all you want" list. This only makes sense in a system where you want to meet a minimum (and low) nutritional density, and otherwise minimize the amount of work your body has to do to get calories. 

    So what I'm thinking is if you get your chemistry and digestion right, maybe your ability to absorb minerals goes from 10% of ingestion to 80% of ingestion (these numbers are made up), and as a result just one or two servings of veggies and/or fruit provides you with all you need. After that, enjoy your Oreos.

    Anyway, that's the idea I'm noodling on at the moment.

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  83. The other thought I had was that if this RBTI ever goes mainstream, that will be a very bad day for Nutella.

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  84. Jannis-

    Your advice to stop writing about the wild RBTI theories as if they were scientific fact is extremely solid advice. Much of what I hear makes my skin crawl. For example, Challen thinks that the refractometer only measures sugars, which is straight up false. He thinks grits are a good source of potassium even though they contain no potassium. He thinks anyone who eats okra regularly will not have cancer, but the person I know who likes okra more than anyone I know just had a bunch of tumors sliced out of her. These things are talked about like they are absolute truths channeled from a sentient being with the almighty knowledge of all things health.

    The problem is that I'm repeatedly humbled by its effectiveness thus far. Sure, I'll have to see it for myself as I continue to try it out, and that will take a long time to figure out (it took me 3 years to figure out what a low-carb diet is and isn't), but so far I can't help but be captivated about what's going on here. I'll try not to get too cultish for you. I understand the cultish undertones lately. My profile pic is friggin' David Koresh for crying out loud.

    Still, I can't help but notice how obvious hypoglycemia is when the refractometer reading falls below 1.0. Even I was feeling really strange the other day. Kinda lightheaded. So I got up and peed on the refractometer to see a reading of 1.2 - the lowest reading I've had. Like clockwork, those obvious feelings of hypoglycemia coincided perfectly with the refractometer reading, which coincided perfectly with the time of day Challen states sugars are most likely to drop for the first time - llam. Almost on the dot. Not sure how to reconcile this, but low refractometer reading and symptoms of hypoglycemia are incredibly clear - something I've had strongly reinforced by hanging out with 2 "hypoglycemics" (by Challen's defintion) the past week.

    With your hypoglycemic tendencies, you should get a refractometer and tell us what you find. I think you'll quickly develop interest in this like I have.

    Keriann-

    Thanks. This is very interesting stuff. I have no choice but to write about it. The theories and isms are really off the wall, but what works is all that matters. And we'll see if this is legit or not. It certainly appears to have some legitimacy.

    AaronF-

    Hard to test too when you can't track adherence to the program either. When it works for some and not for others, how much is due to the failure of the program and how much is due to the failure of the person to follow the program correctly?

    Beth-

    You can eat fruit between meals. As an athlete you can eat more late in the evening too if you choose. But you will find your body adjusting if you do anything with regularity. And as far as back pain is concerned, I did hear from someone today who used to go to the chiropracter twice weekly for 12 years. Since following the program for 3 1/2 years her back pains have gone away and her x-rays supposedly show complete regeneration of all of her degenerated discs. She is in her 50's and was able to do that. Growth of bones in her feet has also caused her shoe size to increase.

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  85. Matt

    Do digestive enzyme supplements have a part to play in any of this?

    What Brock says above re digestion and being able to absorb more minerals from food is very interesting.

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  86. Derek-

    Should those who have blackouts and seizures after drinking water also not fear drinking reasonable amounts of water? We are not necessarily talking about normal people. We are talking about seriously ill people that would die without some kind of system for bringing their body chemistry back into a functional range.

    Sirch-
    Fantastic stuff. Really appreciate the back and forth between you and Taylor.

    AS-

    I completely agree on the points you made about science. Most "science" is just used as masturdebatory kindling, but it is impossible to make any real progress or prove anything without running into a wall of contradiction elsewhere. I could go out and find all kinds of evidence promoting the consumption of vegetable oils for example.

    The only thing that matters is whether a person's methods for making sick people well and halting pressing health conditions work or do not.

    If a refractometer reading above 1.5 consistently predisposes a person to a large list of health problems, while consistent readings below that predispose someone to a whole list of other symptoms and health issues (and like I said, a low refractometer reading is something that is typically accompanied by obvious signs and symptoms - frequent urination, cold hands and feet, dizziness, mood distortion, etc.), then what exactly is being measured is relatively inconsequential. Challen has seen urine register anywhere from 0.0 to 9.5 on a refractometer. The 0.0 is something common to a person with blackouts and seizures and severe vomiting and total disability. The 9.5 was in someone with severe cancer.

    As both of these cases were moved towards 1.5, illnesses improved dramatically. But it's hard to know the why's and what's because this diagnostic value has never been studied and isn't even approved for human use. So one has to see whether it works or not. I'm not going to ignore this because there are no studies done, because hey, it might work. That's why I'm here. To find out. And in many ways it's quite badass.

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  87. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  88. Brock-

    You never cease to amaze me with how well you grasp what I'm trying to get across. I think it's the Condorman bond between us. I don't even have to say it and you complete my sentences. I think I love you. Hope your wife can share you.

    Ahem, so...

    Yes, I think the ability of the body to absorb minerals properly, and use them properly for rebuilding bone, teeth, etc. (as opposed to what happens when you take in a bunch of minerals but the minerals are mismanaged - cataracts, kidney stones, arterial calcification) - is what balancing out the body chemistry is all about. It's about priming the body to absorb minerals at an optimal rate. Who knows what kind of number value you could give on the level of enhancement provided.

    2. People with a crappy mineral supply often have crappy digestion, and often don't get much out of more nutritious foods. I think eating what is easiest to digest, watching body chemistry closely, and supplementing the right minerals is the ticket here. This is just what the doc ordered for someone with weak digestion. In fact, processed foods might very well be "optimal" if they didn't have all their minerals stripped out.

    3. The mineral content of the diet here is huge when you factor in the fact that all food is cooked with small amounts of blackstrap molasses, and doses approximating 100% of the RDA of minerals is taken in supplement form with each meal. With balanced pH's and what not, who knows what kind of multiplier you could attach to this in terms of how much mineral is really delivered to the bones, teeth, cells, nervous system, etc.

    Anyway, it's very interesting to ponder why exactly this is effective. The theories of the RBTI are often wacky and poorly explained. I hope smart folks like you, Taylor, Sirch, AS, and others can work together in the future to figure out why this is scientifically plausible if it indeed continues to appear so effective. I certainly couldn't tell you why. What I do know is that it does make a lot more sense in terms of the degeneration seen when humans moved to refined foods and modern farming methods. It's clear throughout history that the introduction of these foods was somehow the culprit. But no one has been able to figure out EXACTLY why that is. Some thought lack of fiber. Others thought glycemic index. Others thought lack of nutrients but weren't able to take it to specifics. Anyway, collective, cumulative, escalating demineralization would make more sense to me than many other explanations I've seen.

    And it would make sense that we couldn't just, if really sick, eat some healthy food and expect to recover if the entire metabolism/digestion/mineral absoprtion is all totally whacked out.

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  89. Wolfstriked-

    I always thought the problem with Optimal Diet was the high fat content. Fat does not contain minerals. Thus, you have to get all your mineral supply in with only 20% of your caloric intake. My teeth hurt like a mutha on a 70-80% fat diet over the long-term.

    As for the aquarium thing you mentioned, this is really the heart of the RBTI. The greater the mineral supply, the greater the stability of your body chemistry and the greater your resilience. Just like the water with more dissolved minerals being less impacted by outside forces that would cause chemical changes (strong acids), so is the body when presented with disturbances, acids, and so forth (like say, lactic acid - the stronger your mineral supply the more exercise one could endure per se, like the person I know raised on the most mineral-dense diet running 100 miles per week every week for the past 6 years straight!).

    Anyway, I encourage you to expand on this idea, because it really is central to RBTI - which could better be described as "the mineral depletion theory of disease (MDTD)"

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  90. Taylor/Hobson wrote:
    "AS, I believe you and I are on the same page more than you'd think. :-)"

    Taylor,

    I have no reason to doubt that. If you seek the truth, then we're definitely on the same page there. Don't stop contributing "skepticism and open-minded inquiry" here. Like I've said before to you, DML, and others here, I like that you encourage us to think critically. And you guys (and gals) bring up good questions and points to consider. So don't stop doing your thing. I like challenging what I think I know. And if you continue to make me challenge my views, I'll kindly return the favor! :-)

    I went on that search because all the discussion of no sugars in healthy urine made me start questioning what I thought I knew to be true. So I had to check it out for myself and see what current "scientific evidence" had to offer on the subject ;-). But, either way, I went searching for the truth and I knew I could have discovered I was wrong.

    Anyway, I was definitely on the same page with Sirch, at that moment... goal being to put to rest the question of sugars in urine so we can move on to the most important question... does RBTI work? Like Sirch said... "Ultimately, if it works, it works." If so, does it really matter how? Probably not so much to the seriously ill who become well again :-)

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  91. Brock,

    Matt already beat me to it... not the hope your wife will share you part (ha!)... the amazing part lol! I've been thinking a lot about that too. Makes total sense to me. Anyway, great commentary! :-)


    Matt,

    More really great feedback. No answers for me?? Or is there more coming? :-)

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  92. Aw, shucks. Now I'm blushing. Really, look at my profile pic.

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  93. Crap. Pic isn't uploading. Now joke is ruined.

    -------------

    AS,

    Darn.

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  94. MATT -


    What you are doing is extremely fascinated, as a pre-scientist myself sometimes it can be hard to believe something that is obviously incorrect, but you sorta have to when the results speek for themselves.

    I was thinking about the grits good for potassium (was it?) but even thigh grits lack them could it be they contain something else that actually regulates the mineral balance on a cellular level - hence it obviously work since the numbers don't lie.


    poor, poor woman... chiro 2x weekly for 12 YEARS????? Now that pisses me off because that chiro is malpracticing!!!!! No wonder she never got better being over-treated like that. He should lose his license to practice!

    Unfortunately, many chiros learn that in school (depending on school but fromw hat I've experienced, it's mainly a USA thing, no offense), to tell patients they need x och x many treatments (like, how would they even know that), often up to 100 in 1-2 years time, and they pay in advance. It's a way of making sure they've got a stable income and has nothing to do with caring for the patient or trying to make them better. And that pisses me off so much!!!

    Usually one need 5-6 treatments, with some time in between, be 2 weeks or a month then you take a longer time off letting the body re-establish, probably doing exercises at home yourself, and then x months later do a follow up. IF you're not better, you'll need to think of somehthing else, sometimes another chiro can see something that the first one missed.

    I saw mine 2 days ago, and he told me, no more treatments. I'd been there 9 times this year and I haven't improved, despite exercises and what not.
    Now he'll refer mig to a MD who will tell if I qualify for an MRI or not so we can see what the deal is and take it from there..


    I'm glad to hear the person got better (degenerated discs is not something a chiro can fix with treatments), interestingly so from RBTI. Dunno if she appreaciated her larger feet though, as a woman with fairly small feet for my height, I know I sure as heck wouldn't lol lol, but then again, if it would get rid of my pain, it would be worth it
    ^_^


    Matt - do you know why honey made me go back asleep? Would it be because I get high levels of cortisol at night due to pain, and thus honey loweres them, or would it be a blood sugar thing that has nothing to do with waking up from pain at all, or coud the two of them be connected somehow, i.e increasing blood sugar => decreases cortisol?


    Thank you for your time




    -Beth (a former chiro student..)

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  95. Trix -

    Thanks,
    Never heard of the guy, but as a sucker for things I've never heard about, especially health related and suffering from extreme nerdin' scientific curiosity, I'm always up for a good read to check things out.

    One thing I've learned over the years and am still learning: never dismiss something I know nothing about and has never tried myself.
    (that doesn't mean it would be a good idea to throw myself off a cliff just because some drugged out punk swears it'll make you fly like an eagle.)

    ^_^


    -Beth

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  96. To quote DML:
    The NASA report, completed in 1971, is considered to be one of the definitive analyses of human urine to this very day --some 40 years later.

    Why? Why hasn’t there been done more research? If so many of us are sure the MD’s are correct that urine does not contain sugars, why do we trust the ‘idiots’ with the lives of the astronauts, if they can’t even perform a urine analysis?
    Next question is what the profit for the medical society is if you are dependent on them and don’t know anything about your health. I am all for trusting the ones who make the biggest buck on our illnesses.

    @Taylor/Hobson
    The Brix measurement is by some in RBTI called the sugar number, suggesting that it is all sugars. Some have been taught by a teacher that it is the sugar number and never questioned it. For those it is a fact that Brix is 100% sugars.
    But as I tried to explain on the RBTI info page about Brix, it is simply dissolved solids. And yes, I believe that includes some sugars.

    But I believe anyone with a scientific background will realize that most don’t have 5.5% sugars in the urine, while if we look at the dividing point between tendency to low and high blood sugars it is 5.5.
    I am aware that Dr. Reams did a lot of research on the relations between blood sugars and urine Brix. He found that blood sugars fluctuate too fast to make an accurate interpretation on.
    If one has a tendency to high blood sugars, the Brix will be high. You may test that person to be low on a single test, but if you would test throughout the day on a regular basis, you would find the tendency.
    So even though I believe Brix includes measuring all the sugars in the urine, I do not believe Brix is all sugars, far from.

    To quote Brock:
    “What I've noticed about RBTI is that it doesn't focus too much on food quality at all…

    Wow. OK: RBTI comes in two forms, which go hand in hand: plant live and animal live. We humans fall under animal live and that is what we are discussing here. If we would eat all the plants (and that would obviously include fruits), we would most likely never need supplements.

    The better RBTI consultants use foods where they can, and if need be (and that is usually the case) they include supplements to be as the name says; supplement. There are food lists on which fruits and vegetables have which minerals and do what with the body chemistry, but more important relating your question; we use the refractometer to measure fruit and vegetable quality. By measuring the Brix of the juice, we get an indication of the mineral content, because sugars and minerals seem to bind together in plant life. That is the reason we like sweets better; in nature a sweeter fruit of a certain kind contains more minerals as a less sweet one from the same kind.
    But not to use many words about your thoughts that we pick up more minerals if our chemistry is correct: That is what RBTI is about

    To quote Matt:
    The theories of the RBTI are often wacky and poorly explained.
    Could not agree more. But keep in mind that there are many out there that have been teaching it for years and actually believe they have an explanation that is perfect. If you question the explanation they will be personally attacked. They make someone feel stupid if they question RBTI, despite that they believe we should question the MD’s. So my advice; question everything!

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  97. sorry the link did not work, the correct link to the RBTI info page about Brix

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  98. Beth-

    I suspect you are waking due to low sugar. When you have low sugar your adrenal glands activate and make you not just awake but alert, like you just had a cup of strong coffee - often complete with aggression, anxiety, rapid pulse, and so forth. The first time I noticed this effect was when drinking alcohol. I would notoriously wake up in this state at 4am. I didn't understand it until I began studying this stuff later on.

    The honey will raise your sugars, lower adrenal hormones, and allow you to slip back into a parasympathetic nervous system dominated state (relaxed, sleepy, calm).

    Eating lots of food late at night, drinking alcohol, or eating sweets late can often send sugar levels so high that they come crashing back down during this window. What goes up must come down. That's why eating these types of food are encouraged when sugar levels are natually at their lowest (middle of the day) and discouraged later in the day when sugar levels are naturally high (when someone who struggles with low sugar actually feels energized, in a good mood, etc.)

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  99. Brock,

    Oh well. The "darn" comeback was funny though lol! But now you got me wondering what that pic was. Don't leave us hangin' - what was it?! :-)


    Anyway, back on topic, when I came across that Reams quote: "Low or High blood sugar is not caused by what you eat. It is a malfunction of the pancreas which is a malfunction of the liver. All malfunction of the liver is a mineral deficiency." -- it got me thinking about what I was saying before about proper assimilation of the vitamins, minerals, nutrients in the food we eat. And that if you're meeting your body's needs to consistently improve and maintain in the A range - as it pertains to RBTI - you're golden and can eat your frozen pizza and pies, if you like... even the occasional chocolate treat or pork ribs probably wouldn't set you back much.

    In the past, I had been somewhat hung up on the idea of processed foods being too deficient to meet our body's needs. And the "degeneration seen when humans moved to refined foods and modern farming methods" as the apparent result. I was one who thought that was somehow the culprit - lack of natural vitamins, minerals, nutrients in those foods, at least. Plus the rancidity and toxins from the processing.

    But, thanks to recent events here (and Matt and all you 180 peeps - and Challen and Reams too), I've been re-thinking more about that lately. And I agree, I have always questioned conventional wisdumb on the RDA of anything! It makes sense to me that mineral supply, proper absorption, and the lack thereof would explain why some people (myself included) don't seem to have been as affected as others by our seemingly deficient food supply over the years. Anyway, I'd bet that a study would find that those people (myself included) have more efficient mineral absorption than those who are ill. Just a hunch :-)

    BTW, in the 2nd to last paragraph of his "no foods" article on this page: www.heavenlywater.com/catalog/news.php?article=13

    Challen says, "If the energy (mineral) supply is high enough you may virtually eat anything."

    So, good news for those who couldn't get past the no-no food list. I know my peeps were happy to hear that! :-)

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  100. Matt,I agree that we are like fish and finding out what makes us thrive should be on the health associations list but sadly it seems instead geared towards macronutrients only.I always thought also that we shouldn't eat the same foods if we are different ethnicities.A prime example is black people and white people.Black people should be told or SOLD black vitamins and white people should be sold white vitamins.Sounds racist but in fact its very good idea because dark skinned people have an insane amount of sun ray blocking and when they move to a climate that is always overcast they suffer from no vitD production....and to further this they stray away from the one high dose they could add to their diets by avoiding milk due to lactose intolerance.

    Then there is other factors like what your society ate for diet.I'll explain my cousin who visited from Spain yrs back.He would cook me food and I would just laugh so hard at how much olive oil he would add.3 eggs cooked in close to half cup of olive oil and then pour the oil over the food when plated.I asked him why so dam greasy and he said "its delicious" and you can soak up with the bread.All I remember is the taste being pure olive oil mainly.This is why I feel that not only skin color but what your people ate is another factor.Not all dark skinned people eat same foods and same with light skinned.Sounds racist and I dont mean to come off like that.

    Then the French who amaze me with their small meals.I watched authentic French cooking show in past and could not believe how small the meals were.A dessert was a peach cobbler made with TONS of butter and sugar but it was around3 inches wide and 1in thick.Then the kicker was when he brought out the super rich ice cream and proceeded to plop one "TEASPOON" of ice cream on top.It was a freakin bite of ice cream!!!!LOL

    I do see your point about fat being low mineral though it might be just that we are taking in to much acid forming foods,pollution etc and so whats normal amount of minerals might be too low.All I know is that this high fat moderate protein and carbs with tons of greens is doing something amazing.It removes two major issues I have with the VLC diet.A feeling that I do not look as good as I should and the bad pooping.Fixes both those issues for me.

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  101. Oh and Matt....please ask Challen what it means when you piss alot of foam.When I was at my worst health wise I would get a foam layer 4 to 5 inches thick.Every doctor I asked would say its normal but I know it is not normal.A little foam I notice in some people and others have no foam but I have super foamy soap like urine and this is just another ffactor in how our society is not as smart as we think we are when it comes to health.

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  102. When the urine will foam, that happens regularly with people who have a high UREA and often a high conductivity.

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  103. Hey Matt,

    Thanks for responding to everyone. I honestly thought you went off the deep end, but now you are making some sense of all of this.

    I seems that the reading on the refractomer might be significant for some reason but maybe not for the reasons that RBTI reasons.

    Maybe it has to do with the leeches or removing of minerals from the body due to lack of minerals in the diet or something like that.

    And/or the right balance of water. Maybe certain foods cause demineralization for some reason.

    I have no idea....but just saying there maybe something to this.

    Thanks,
    Adam

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  104. What do you think of the supplements Matt? Are you taking any? Since the Mincol comes from bonemeal are we meant to be worried about its purity/lead contamination, etc. It was suggested i take the Algazim and now I have received it I realise it is iodine which worries me a bit as I have not had good reactions to iodine before.
    Also, how are you managing with the corn oil - are you just sticking to olive oil - even if you are to keep it from being too low fat you have to use more than Ray Peat's 'teaspoon a day' - definitely raising your PUFA levels!
    I'm confused about eating sweet things at night. I'm trying to eat less and low sugar (i.e. no fruit) at night a la RBTI but then I'm just hungry all the time and have to eat before bed. Personally as someone with low blood sugar I am finding it difficult to follow the meal plan - perhaps it will get easier but I can't see how. Perhaps I need to up my oil intake at supper time to get me through the night ... thereby ruining my lowering of PUFAs I've been working on.

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  105. Matt, since dinners are meant to be lighter without a protein source, what kind of meals are you eating?

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  106. Taylor,

    Your commitment to your research is impressive. You are either going to be RBTI's greatest ally or worst nightmare :)

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  107. Matt,

    It seems that there are a many people here that are tempted to try and implement some aspects of RBTI but are not yet ready (for various reasons) to take the leap to buy the kit and consult with Challen.

    But like you said in this post, there are definitely some things (like drinking lots of water) that should not be taken as universal guidelines and could potentially do harm.

    Maybe you could do a short post on what (if anything) people could try and therefore make clear what they should definitely not try without having their numbers or Challen's guidance.

    I know that you're not liable for any thing we do, but at the same time it could be a helpful reminder -- especially considering how the community here (myself included) loves to experiment.

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  108. @ Beth

    re: back pain. What has really helped me (personally, so ymmv) after trying many things that did absolutely nothing but temporary relief:

    http:// www.nishikai.net /english/6dai.html

    This one has the preparatory exercises for the dorso-ventral exercise:
    http:// www.kentavr.biz/nishi/ dorso.htm

    If you find the time / inclination to try them and if they help, you can find the book Nishi Health Engineering or something on Amazon.

    (I also practice yoga for 90min every morning, but the real "wow" came only when I also started doing the Nishi exercises.)

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  109. Ah yeah, it took one year, but now I can sleep on a tiled floor with and stay on my back for a lot of the time... It actually feels much more comfortable than a soft bed now. Still got room for improvement though.

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  110. HANS -

    if sleeping on a rock hard bed and practicing yoga does you good, then that's great. I believe yoga can be good for some, but not for everyone. Same with a rock hard bed (been there, did both for 6 months) >_O


    But thank you for your effort ^_^
    I'm sure those 6 laws and exercises can help some people depending on their problem. Especially sedentary people who sit down a lot i.e. office workers, I'm sure could benefit a lot ^_^



    MATT-

    Thanks for your comment.
    After trying out LC as an experiment (and what a stupid experiment that was), going back to HC(LF) made me once again sleep like a baby, especially with a big pile of tato-mash a few hours before bed. I still do, but the past 2 weeks back pain got a little worse and that's when I started waking up at night every time I moved.

    However, as you wrote, the body adjusts to what we give them pretty quickly. Maybe I should stick to vegs as my last meal for a few weeks and see if my sleep (blood sugar) improves ^_^



    -Beth

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  111. Beth,just ate my huge veggie meal an hour ago(two boxes of frozen broccoli,green beans and lotsa butter w/eggs cheese)and can tell you that its the best for blood sugar stability.

    And for back pains or pains in joint areas I can tell you that I have cured alot of my friends and myself who was prone to throwing out my back as a youth.I found that you just need to strengthen the muscles around the joint and the pains subside.

    Examples are my heavy labor job lifting heavy boxes all day.No one at my job ""EVER"" complains of lower back pains ;) That is very obvious point.You need an exercise to do for lower back strengthening that really targets the erector spinea muscles.These muscles surround the lower spine and support it.Think about a spine with nothing around it and you will vision why weak lower back muscles will cause pain there.The spine will just bend under pressure where if you muscles there where strong would keep it always tight.They also are hard to target unless you bend over and lift objects all day.Most people lift with the legs and reduce the work this small muscle gets even more and in fact this small muscle is capable of huge amounts of strength witnessed by the amazing poundages people deadlift.So try this exercise everyday other day.It targets the erectors exclusively.And if you ever throw your back out or witness someone throw there back out have them do this exercise immeadiately and I guarantee you that they will immediately stand.....always worked for me when I got stuck!!

    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEeEplGujO4"

    The pain people at my job do get is knee pain and they feel its from jumping in and out of truck all day.I tell them to do this one exercise and pain subsides.Try it yourself.Just do a squat where you put your ass as close to the floor as it will go.You will notice as you go down that at a certain point you lose balance and you get weird sensations in knee area like a pulling.When you go deep in a squat you will feel the tendons and the muscles attached to your knee tighten and loosen.Do not even come all the way up instead going way down and up slightly and target that area exclusive!!

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  112. AS ~

    You said in your previous posts,

    "Also, whether people like it or not, anecdotes are evidence. I personally trust real life results more than "scientific" evidence -- not that anecdotal stories aren't highly individual and therefore subjective. I do realize that. But I also realize that science is humanly flawed in that it is highly biased by self-serving interests and even well-intentioned beliefs -- which is essentially a placebo effect itself."

    As well as,

    There's always going to be some aspect of a study that can serve a position or theory - one way or the other. Just as you used that aspect to serve your position. All studies have an agenda. Again, whether it be self-serving or even of good intentions."

    Yes! I completely agree with you. I believe we're speaking from different frames of reference, but talking about the same thing. What you call an agenda, I call the basic human tendency towardconfirmation bias. AKA, "a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true."

    Taken from a more pop culture-oriented explanation of the tendency: "Out of all the chaos, all the morsels of data, you only notice the bits which called back to something sitting on top of your brain. [...]

    If you are thinking about buying a new car, you suddenly see people driving them all over the roads. If you just ended a long-time relationship, every song you hear seems to be written about love. If you are having a baby, you start to see them everywhere.

    Confirmation bias is seeing the world through a filter, thinking selectively."


    It seems that everyone does this to a certain extent, as you and Sirch discussed. It occurs in scientific and other research, in personal anecdotes, and in people's everyday lives. It's an integral part of how we all experience the world as humans, in finding and noticing patterns.

    Some studies are deigned to try to avoid the effects of confirmation bias, as in double-blind trials. That certainly isn't to say scientific studies are infallible, or even overwhelmingly "true" in any way, in my opinion--they're simply another human method of exploration, using whatever tools and reactions available.

    It seems that exploring the possibility of confirmation bias-- and recognizing when and where it could happen in others, ourselves, and any source of information presented--is a way of balancing this selective filter.

    We're all on the journey, and using whatever resources we've got to make sense of the world and choose which recommendations to follow.

    Some of those resources will be "science" and the ability to interpret it (all humanly fallible), researchers like Matt and others, anecdotes, personal experience and intuition (equally fallible and subjective, as you've said), critical thinking skills (ditto, human) and a connection to the ineffable.

    Thanks for the encouragement to continue to explore information and ask questions. I appreciate that you challenge me to think critically about my understanding, and critical thinking. :-)


    Taylor/Hobson

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  113. Taylor,

    You're right. We are definitely on the same page there. I completely agree. Thank you for your comments :-)

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  114. Double-blind studies do not remove confirmation bias, because no one is blind when they design the questions or controls to the study. Exhibit 1 is all of the "saturated fat" studies that don't distinguish between coconut oil and margarine.

    The only guard against confirmation bias is to constantly assume you know very little, and to always rigorously approach new studies for their strengths and lessons (regardless of how they fit into your current understanding).

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  115. @ Beth

    I didn't recommend you to do yoga... What I recommended are the Nishi exercises.

    But since you're writing that, why do you feel that yoga is not for everyone (and not for you?) I couldn't come up with a reason why anyone should not practice it.

    And about the bed, what was the problem? Did it hurt too much and kept you from sleeping? It took me over 1.5 years to get there. I used thinner mattresses, than a pile of blankets, less blankets etc...

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  116. Wolfstriked -

    Thanks, but...

    1. I did the whole vegs and fat thing for 9 months as an experiment. It literally made me ill and burned out and I probably haven't yet recovered from it. I will not get a cathecolamine-high again, especially not since I have high cortisol already due to pain. Optimal diet is not optimal.


    2. I don't have "blood sugar problems". AS soon as my back get a little better again, I will stop waking up at night every single time I move. As it has before. When I wake I'm drowsy and I can't go back asleep due to the pain, not because of anxiety, an overly active brain, anger or anything like that.

    3. I don't have lower back problems.


    I know it's easy to give ideas without a proper anamnesis, but, seriously, I'm here right now because I'm interested in RBTI as an option.
    but thanks for your concern.



    Hans -

    I didn't say yoga wasn't for me, I said it wasn't for everyone. I have done it to and fro years ago. Sometimes when I have "good days" I wouldn't mind yoga, except that it aggrevates my condition...

    But yogis seem to be all like "oh, do yoga and you will get rid of aaaaall of your probloems, yoga is the cure of eeeeeverything" (I didn't say you, Hans, not at all, but I've come across a LOT of yogis)and actually, for example, if you have an overly active lower back you'd need to stabilize that imbalance and by taking up yoga it could actually get worse (it sure did for me as it has for other people too). Those are not just my own words. And I'm sure there are many other reasons to why not everyone should do yoga. As with many other things, no matter what the gurus in asia says, not everyone benefits from it.

    Sorry, but I won't go through a YEAR AND A HALF of NO SLEEP (I thought you said one year...now it's over one and a half?) just to get used to sleeping on concrete with no proof at all that it would benefit me. I hurt because I don't have "extra padding" on my body (except for my muscular butt, which put stress on my lower back if I slept on my back in that "bed"). I didn't have a choice in thailand but had to sleep on what I was given.
    I've never had a fluffy cloud for a bed anyway.

    As for the exercises, I'm sure they are very beneficial preparing for a night's sleep on a concrete bed ;) lol
    The kingyo undo would, seriously, be the most fun way to sweep the floor. Ever. lol
    Sure, I could do them to humor you, but it won't do anything for my condition...


    But, as I said, if you enjoy it then that's great ^_^


    Appologize if I seem cranky. I't's morning, the worst time of the day for me.






    - Beth

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  117. God dammit, I hate when when my Internet connection acts up -finally I am back on!

    MATT-

    Yes, thank God I didn't continue with doctor MAD aka RBTI doctor look-a-like! -He would have killed me with all that "heavenly water" Luckily my intuition is always pretty spot on when it comes to things like that.
    Lately my night time urination has improved. I don't have to get up at night anymore. Can't remember last time that ever happened?!
    I still suffer from cold hands and feet though. I'm working on getting that kit. Only because I am utterly intrigued by the pure awesomeness about it.

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  118. Gotcha Beth,sorry do not mean to give bad advice.Just do not let the exercise part of my post drift right over your head though.In future if you do have joint pains then exercise the joint in its full range of motion.Just today some guy dropped his phone in train and the noises and face he put on when he bent to pick it up is sad.The physically holding his knee caps on with his hands is actually funny.

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  119. @ Beth

    Thanks for explaining your concerns about yoga. I'm thinking though that you might have been doing a gymnastics-style version of yoga? I've tried that kind of yoga before, and it didn't help at all.

    I didn't go 1.5 years without sleep at all. My reason for doing this was that I couldn't sleep to begin with. Sleeping on a harder surface has gradually improved my sleep quality. Like I described, I took a gradual approach. I kind of just knew when I was ready to progress further, and I could easily tell when I was overdoing it (and just moved back.) Sure, I can't guarantee it will help you. It has helped me. Personally, I don't have any extra padding on my body. It has nothing to do with that. It's all about relaxing. Once you relax fully, a hard surface becomes comfortable. Think of a dog or cat lying comfortably on concrete. This ability to relax is key for my well being. I have developed it with yoga. The hard sleeping surface helps maintaining and increasing it as well as straightening out my spine.

    But anyway. The exercises aren't "a good preparation for sleeping on concrete." They are what took away the chronic back pain I've had since being a child. No other kind of exercise I've tried (and I've tried a lot) has done that. No disrespect, but it is impossible for you to know that they won't do anything for you until you tried them. Performing them takes less than 20min and costs you nothing. Since you seemed ready to spend the 1,000+$ and lots of time every day that it takes to get into something which is most likely quackery, I thought I would suggest them to you.

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