Monday, August 8, 2011

Hypoglycemia, Blackouts, Seizures

Here is another interview with the woman visiting West Virginia to work with Challen Waychoff in person.  This is basically an exit interview about her experiences in Wheeling before she heads back home later this afternoon.  Turns out one of the biggest roadblocks that she was running into at home was eating "too much health food."  She kept trying to do things like make pancakes from fresh-ground whole-grain flour and things at home, only to find out that such measures were not only unnecessary, but counterproductive.  As you listen to the interview, be open to these ideas...

a) Whatever she did here obviously helped her out.
b) Very ill people may actually recover better eating easy-to-digest refined foods as opposed to hard-to-digest unrefined foods.
c) The mineral supplements given may very well make up for the lack of minerals in refined foods - and maybe even end up being far more nutritious than whole foods without supplementation.
d) Many additives found in processed foods may be minutiae, benign, or at the very least less harmful than eating food you can't digest.  
e) Getting the body chemistry in a certain place may make vitamin and mineral absorption so much more effecient that avoiding refined food becomes unnecessary.  
f) Reams claimed to have developed the program for anyone to be able to remineralize even buying and eating common foods out of their supermarket.  

Anyway, those are thoughts I've had that have kept my mind open to following the program as Challen feels is ideal.  Of course, eating refined food is not really a required part of the program, so don't let your health food infatuation stand in the way of your open-mindedness about all this.       

146 comments:

  1. I hear you on the letting go of the health food but what about the fat issue. Are you really using corn oil after all the pushing of low PUFA? I know you can use olive oil but if that is your only source of fat one is going to need quite a bit thereby adding up on the PUFA front. Plus there is a taste issue - olive oil on oatmeal - yuk! Challen says you can use a certain brand of margarine 2 or 3 times a week but I can't bring myself to do that!

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  2. Speaking of oil, what about the scandal a while back about how olive oil is doctored with hazelnut/soybean oil? Is olive oil something we can buy from our local grocery store, or is that something that has to be extensively researched and hunted down?

    On a different note - for the last 20 or so years of my life, every time I visit the doctor they want a urine sample. And since I became pregnant for the first time 13 years ago, they have often detected sugar in it based on a dip strip. They told me I was gestational diabetic, and the 3-hour blood glucose test confirmed that. Post partum, everything returns to normal. But while I'm pregnant the nurses would constantly nag me about eating sugar, even when I had not had anything sweet for weeks. So I don't know if there is sugar in urine, but I know my doctor has told me there is. Of course post partum is when the shaky, moody, yucky hypoglycemic symptoms would hit hardest. I can still bring those feelings on by drinking lots of water at one time.

    Interestingly, my most recent doctor's visits revealed something else in my urine - instead of sugar, this time it's blood. What the? Is blood something that shows up in a normal person? My doctor calls it "trace amounts" but I'm not exactly reassured.

    I haven't been to the doctor in several months now, since they took my gallbladder out (mostly because they had run out of stuff to diagnose me with.) I'm kind of sorry I let them do it, but I was at my wit's end - pain pills everyday, beginning of ulcers in my stomach, etc. Wish I had known how to help my liver with the lemon juice then.

    Anyway, I don't know if they would still find blood in my urine after the surgery, but it's interesting that Challen is so infatuated with urine, considering all the stuff the doctor has told me they've found in mine.

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  3. Very interesting.

    BTW Dr Linus Pauling...winner of 2 Noble Prizes, stated:

    "You can trace every sickness, every disease and every ailment to a mineral deficiency"

    Adam

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  4. Dinosaur

    You are thinking far too complicated. We don't put olive oil on oatmeal. lol!!!

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  5. Danyelle

    Bertolli olive oil sooms to be really good. I actually went and bought a nice expensive one from Trader joes, and it showed as being really bad in my numbers. So I have gone back to cheapo regular grocery store with really good success. This program is soooooooo easy and inexpensive. You could get all you need from Walmart!

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  6. The interview sounds like NPR. I don't know why.

    -------

    I won't lie. I first subscribed to this site, and bought Matt's ebooks, because of the nice things he had to say about my boy Weston. And Matt introduced me to the most pimp daddy nutritional mofo of all time, Sir Robert McCarrison, MD, PhD, LLS, XYZ, ABC, WTF. I think prying those ideas away from me will be as difficult as getting Charleston Heston to give up his boom-stick.

    -------

    Which makes me wonder, how on Earth did we get through Ray May without even one Army of Darkness reference? "Give me some sugar, baby." What a waste of an awesome opportunity.

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    By the way, is anyone else's irony meter pegging at the thought that overly processed foods both got us into this health mess AND might be the only foods easy enough to digest to get us out?

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  7. Moi -
    Good to hear you are feeling better.. I was wondering with your new dietary changes how often do the hypoglycemic conditions occur now. Does your sugars remain stable throughout the afternoon hours or are you having to eat some fruit/sugar after 2 pm daily?

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  8. What is Challen's approach with people who can't eat gluten?

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  9. Great to hear more feedback from Moi! :-)

    Regarding what Sirch just said in the previous post, I'm one who has been experimenting a little - following the basic RBTI guidelines that apply to most everyone - provided you don't have extenuating circumstances. In the last 3 weeks or so, I have actually been eating canned veggies and canned fruit - only fruit in 100% juice so far. Can't bring myself to do the heavy syrup. Really sweet stuff is too sweet-tasting to me. Same with salt - oftentimes, things taste too salty to me. I just recently discovered that tilapia (love it!) is really good even with no salt or seasoning at all.

    Besides, Freschetta frozen pizzas (and a few other frozen food items), I hadn't eaten much boxed or canned food in a while. Beans were just about the only canned food I would eat before - because canned are already prepared and cooked. And I love canned re-fried beans. I was buying the authentic kind cooked with lard before, but now I get the fat-free kind. Anyway, as for the canned veggies, I get all the "no salt added" ones I can find - corn, tomatoes, peas, green beans, carrots (all Walmart brand). And surprisingly, all are really good even without salt, except the french style green beans not so much :-)

    Yesterday, for the first time in I can't tell you how long, I got skim milk (Walmart brand!) and Corn Flakes, and I had that for dinner last night. I used to love Corn Flakes and banana (with milk) anytime of day. I think that would make a good RBTI breakfast a few times a week :-)

    I told Matt about a recent trip to the store and how I had intended to get the multi-grain waffles (Challen-style breakfast). But after looking at the ingredient list, it was so freakin' (literally!) long that I just couldn't do it lol! Well, yesterday, I did it! I had them for breakfast - with the local honey I have (forgot the maple syrup) and eggs.

    Anyway, the point in doing this is for me to be even more open to processed foods. I plan to follow the basic RBTI guidelines as much as I can (including relaxing more about eating refined foods) to get a feel for it, until I go full on protocol. I do wonder about the supplements though. I'm curious to see if I notice a difference even without them. But... is it a good idea to eat refined foods without them?

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  10. Two slogan suggestions for RBTI.

    Quoting Matt from this interview:

    RBTI: It's Badass!

    Stealing from Apple Inc:

    RBTI: It just works!

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  11. Matt and/or Moi,

    I'm still not sure what to tell the people who have asked me about the lemon water. Any thoughts on their lemon water questions? I'll copy/paste them below. Another question I got - in light of refined foods being okay - was whether or not you can use bottled lemon juice. I was thinking (a la Reams) that you should only use fresh-squeezed lemon juice but now I'm not sure. What does Challen think about bottled?

    The questions I've gotten regarding the lemon water:
    Are people able to stop the lemon water at some point? Do some not do the lemon water at all or some only for a short time as needed? What about those who shouldn't be drinking much water at all? No lemon water regimen for them? Wouldn't at least some of them need the lemon? Or perhaps they have similar chemistry not requiring the lemon?

    Also, some peeps have been asking about salt and what to use for seasoning. What does Challen use?

    Oh and what about meat? How well done does Challen say it should be? Is some pink in the middle of a steak, for example, okay?

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  12. Disclaimer about the lemon water...

    BTW, I am not doing the lemon water regimen, as I am not on a specific RBTI protocol based on my numbers, yet. And I have advised my people not to start a lemon water regimen either - until or unless they are advised to do so by Challen when they go on a specific RBTI protocol, guided by Challen, based on their individual numbers. Just sayin' :-)

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  13. Is this RBTI just an excuse to eat junk food, as long as it is ok with the numbers?

    I grew up eating a diet of junk, white bread, processed meat, packaged frozen foods, cereal and milk.

    Now somehow food quality might not matter as long as some numbers are in range, and possibly even beneficial?

    Matt you are going to have to hurry up and condense all this information into one summary post and somehow give us a way of getting into the testing and proper number analysis stuff of this.

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  14. So what is the cause of Diabetes again?

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  15. Right on the button lee.

    Challen wants to write a book called eat drink and be merry...

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  16. Oatmeal is not that easy to digest.

    Is Moi the one being interviewed?

    Does she drink distilled water/ lemon, or not good for hypoglycemia?

    Do you test yourself every time you go to the toilet?

    What do you do if you feel funny and want to run some urine through the refractometer but don't need to "go"?

    RBTI is about remineralising, where are these coming from when eating refined foods? Supplements...anything specific or number relative per person?

    If this is a big case of messed up digestion, not absorbing minerals, could this not be due to the common known gut destroyers ie. gluten, casein, soy, corn. If so how will eating these possible causes help?

    If again this is a case of mis digesting, could a simple hcl supplement protocol whilst eating what you want(real food) work?

    Would it be worthwhile to get a refractometer just to see where "sugars" are and to manipulate or is it not worthwhile taken out of context without all the other numbers?

    I think most health people will avoid eating commercially made food out of principle.

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  17. What are some of the most easily digestible foods?

    What are some of the most mineral dense foods?

    I have a high calorie need, low appetite which with repetitive "good" food gets tiring.

    So I could eat whatever I want, avoid no foods, pop my mineral pills and be all good?

    I do not like how strict this plan is with somethings (no pork), certain meal structures but eating a commercial pie full of who knows what can be ok. I can understand HOW, but in real life?

    This RBTI is going to frustrate many people because it is not a simple case of just say avoiding wheat. You need a test kit, and number analysis from just one person in the whole world.

    I would love to give it a go, but it just does not seem viable, especially being over in the UK.

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  18. As

    RBTI can't work with out the lemon. Everyone does at least some.

    No pink in meat.

    Can use whatever to season so long as the no no are avoided. A little pepper in a seasoning is ok.just not everyday.don't abuse.

    Sorry I'm short. My phone is hard to type with.

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  19. Hcl protocol will not work. Its not just digestion. You correct the whole system. Besides most hcl is pork.

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  20. Also, re: easy to digest food.

    Is that not the kind of scientific reasoning against eating pork, in that it does digest quick. Is it not about eating foods that digest slowly, this I have read from a William RBTI guy on here.

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  21. The system is the digestion. Pork throws the entire system off

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  22. Heavenly water sells Betaine, I am assuming this is not Betaine HCL, or is it?

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  23. Moi,

    Thanks! Good to know.

    Oh, BTW, I'm not eating ONLY canned fruits and veggies and refined foods now. Just mixing things up. I still eat fresh fruits and veggies and whole foods too (both locally-grown and store-bought). It's been fun experimenting :-)

    Anyway, I'm not expecting any miracles or much of anything from just following the basics - just getting a feel for them, for now.

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  24. The biggest thing for me was letting go of the fear of foods. You are doing great.

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  25. Yet we should fear a tiny amount of pork derived gelatine for example?

    A scenario:

    You are at a party, you have lost your fear of food, you eat a cheese sandwich that was made with a knife that touched ham. You will never know this.

    Will your numbers dive?

    This is certainly not letting go the fear of food.

    RBTI has a no list longer than a Paleo type outlines.

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  27. Thanks, Moi!

    Yep, same here. But I also prefer the taste of unprocessed food over most processed foods - with exceptions, of course, like Freschetta pizzas and ice cream :-)

    Have a safe trip back home! Looking forward to future feedback from ya.

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  28. From what I understand, yes, a porcine gelatin capsule can throw numbers off.

    Does Challen have a theory regarding the current 'obesity epidemic'? No-no food consumption and gluttony?

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  29. You buy and eat a commercial chicken pie full of a million ingredients. You are free of fear so it is ok now. The pie has trace pork in it somehow, perhaps during production, the production run before was porkpies.

    Does that mean you even need your cheat food vetted by Challen before consumption.

    Free from fear of food? hmmmm.

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  30. @ Lee
    You can find some information about some of the RBTI supplements on the European site. The info is a bit limited and is only been on line since a day or two.

    There are more RBTI practitioners and testers even in Europe.

    If you have a test kit yourself, you can see the effect of pork on your numbers. But please keep in mind what Matt says in the article. Even though I do not believe B is true, the rest is entirely correct.
    So the better your health, the less of an impact the no-no's have. For the record; chocolate was according to Dr. Manthei (the one teaching for Dr. Reams the last year before he died) only a no-no while healing, it was not a real no-no. Some even claim pork not to be a real no-no, but I have serious questions about that.

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  31. Matt, I recall your saying that Challen's method works best for people who are quite sick. Do you feel that someone in fairly good health could still benefit from taking his mineral supplements?

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  32. So is milk as magical as Arnold said?Milk was superior food to bodybuilders in the heyday(arnold drank a gallon per day)and now its frowned upon and people bypass the fat and carbs to get at just the protein.

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  33. Has there been any mention on how different types of exercise such as weight lifting, long duration cardio, PACE, etc... affect the 'numbers'?

    Adam

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  34. Jacqueline wrote:
    "So the better your health, the less of an impact the no-no's have. For the record; chocolate was according to Dr. Manthei (the one teaching for Dr. Reams the last year before he died) only a no-no while healing, it was not a real no-no. Some even claim pork not to be a real no-no, but I have serious questions about that."

    It was my understanding too, from my past research on RBTI, that chocolate is not a forever no-no food -- which is good news for chocolate lovers, I'm sure. But I also read that Reams said that even pork was an exception for some people while healing, as well. Just depends on your individual numbers.

    As Challen said, (and Reams also said) if and when a person's mineral supply and energy level is high enough (maintained in the A range), they can virtually eat anything. So a person can just keep an eye on their numbers and use RBTI principles to re-gain if they see a loss.

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  35. AS

    Unfortunately no. pork and chocolate will always cause energy loss no matter where you are. No matter what range you are in. being in a range does not necessarily mean you are healthy. It can mean you are healing, and depending on the relationship with all the numbers it can mean the system is shut down. The only thing reams means is that a person at say 80 percent will not have as big of a shift in the numbers or feel out as much as a person at say a30 percent. But if the healthy individual continually eats those foods they will not stay healthy as long as they otherwise would.

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  36. A question for all the research types - what about the supplements? Is there any science behind the special min-col? Is it really spcial somehow or is it just the same as a good multi from CVS?

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  37. The difference seems to be in the type of capsule and some ingredients that regular capsule may contain....no-no foods like pork/porcine gelatin.
    The RBTI supplements seem to be higher priced. Challen's are a bit higher priced than Daily and I suspect/guess that Daily Manufacturing may be the manufacturer of both...Challen's Heavenly Water being private labeled. You can assume most regular gel caps have some pork gelatin in them unless they state V-cap or vegetarian source gelatin...or unless they are Kosher or Halal.

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  38. More specifically I mean the colloidal form vs. the standard mineral form. Some ND's also recommend colloidal (and colloidal silver). Makes sense, but I'd be interested in any science/research.

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  40. What do you RBTIers typically eat for your last meal of the day? I know it's supposed to be fairly small and protein-less.

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  41. Ohh and what is the stance on coffee? I haven't seen it brought up yet.

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  42. After listening to the interview, you do sound like a bunch of looney-tunes :). Everything is explainable... we just can't explain it yet.

    I absolutely am one who can't fathom eating food with all the crap, not just cause of the ingredients, but cause it truly, truly tastes nasty to me. I don't MISS oreos or chips or any of it. We bought store ice cream for my friend who was visiting, and we all said "yuck" and ate our homemade. The only thing I ever miss is the convenience. So I'm presuming it would be all good if I made our own food, but with 50/50 wheat/white, or something like that? If we make homemade desserts, can we use butter instead of margarine, if it's just for that once a day?

    Why is Challen recommending Marie Callendars and such? Is it to replace other pre-made foods? Or because that's really what he wants you to eat instead of homemade food?

    Also, what if we don't really eat wheat, usually? What else needs to be processed/refined besides whole wheat? And what about sourdough being hard to digest? That's the only kind of wheat we're currently eating. Most people say it's easier to digest because it's already partly broken down. Can you explain that one?

    The question I think isn't if you put olive/corn oil in your oatmeal, but what fat do you use? I personally use coconut oil, which is no-no, others use butter. Can't imagine anything else. None at all? Sounds blah.

    And I still am hoping you can clarify the salt question, Matt. Salt is, biblically speaking, very highly thought of :). No offense, Moi, but when you try to explain things such as sea salt, like you said, you don't do a very good job. To be blunt, I think you do a disservice to RBTI, because you make it sound like quackery, rather than simply something that requires thinking outside the box. You defend it emotionally rather than offering any real insight. I don't need a paper in JAMA to believe something, but it is nice for the science to be... science-y.... I'm glad it's worked for you, but Matt has a much better way of making things seem at least plausible, if not sensible, so I really would rather know what he has to say.

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  43. Moi,

    Thanks for clarifying that and setting me straight lol. :-) That's why I need to just go see Challen.

    Reading it back, I see that my comments weren't very clear but didn't really mean a person who gets healthy with RBTI could (or should) eat pork and chocolate on a regular basis - just that no-no foods probably wouldn't set them back much if they ate say chocolate or pork on occasion - I would think :-)

    Moi wrote:
    "But if the healthy individual continually eats those foods they will not stay healthy as long as they otherwise would."

    That's the part I didn't make clear and should have. Thanks!

    I don't doubt that Challen has more experience with RBTI now then Reams did and has gotten a lot further with it than Reams or anyone.

    Anyway, I'm gonna forget everything I read before of Reams (his book) and RBTI and just listen to all of you who definitely know way more about it than me! Until I go see Challen :-)

    Thanks again for all your help, Moi!

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  44. After mulling over the sea salt question more, what I think might be a possible explanation is as follows: Since some are drinking distilled water in order to help flush out non-ionic minerals, adding minerals back in the form of sea salt would be counter-productive. That makes more sense than it corrodes your insides!

    Here, in HI, the salt that is dehydrated direct from the ocean water is highly prized, nobody would be afraid to consume a cup of dehydrated ocean (fish pee and all). But it would be high in non-ionic minerals, which is what I'm guessing is the issue.

    What I'm unclear on is just what is ok according to Challen when it comes to salt. I've read everything from 'no added salt of any kind' to 'no sea salt' to 'no refined sea salt' to 'no refined salt'... all very different things.

    Is purely ionic KCl/NaCL a la Mortons ok, then? This is what would help us understand.

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  45. Ok, sorry to go on, but I just reread something Moi said before, that we avoid salt because it's in everything and it's hard to clear from your body (I was looking for the discussion on how sea salt is bad because it corroded the Titanic and now there's metal in the ocean :p - but couldn't find it). That's a very general statement, and again, not about sea salt, just 'salt'.

    If you make your own food, this is not at all an issue. Then in another place Matt says that Challen says you can salt your food all you want while it's cooking, but not after, because the crystalline state is what's bad. Sea salt? Table salt? So color me very confused about what is actually bad and why.

    The reason I care so much is because I crave salt like a mofo, can eat literally it straight off my hand as long as it's non-refined sea salt, and believe Wilson about using salt to help tired adrenal glands, which is my big issue. Daughter is the same way. And because I like the things to make sense.

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  46. Lorelei said:"The reason I care so much is because I crave salt like a mofo, can eat literally it straight off my hand as long as it's non-refined sea salt, and believe Wilson about using salt to help tired adrenal glands, which is my big issue."

    Me too! I wonder if some of these cravings would disappear quickly with a shift in numbers, like the man's hurting feet?

    I have my kit already and will find out for you! From what I remember we have pretty similar symptoms (major fatigue, adrenal issues, weight gain unable to lose, anxiety?) so maybe what Challen tells me will shed some light on your situation.

    Speaking of that, I understand that Challen works strictly by the numbers, but if he's got years of data showing that a certain pattern presents certain symptoms, could he work backwards?

    I want to feel better, so I'm looking forward to seeing if this will work. Meds are next in line, and I don't want that.

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  47. Kelly, I do believe you are my soul sister... or at least long lost twin! Are you going to do your kids too?

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  48. @ HI Girl-

    This is what William said about salt: "For those who are Christians (like me) and believe you should not question anything the Bible says (unlike me): "Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." Obviously this was unrefined salt.

    For everyone else I will start with adding a little explanation to RBTI, for those to who it was not clear yet:
    A test gives 7 numbers which can be interpreted to get an estimation on reserve energy (in %), but let’s call that health for now. Serious sickness will usually not occur if health stays above 30%. So we don’t see health as the absence of disease. If you take something that is bad for you, like huge amounts of refined salts, you will most likely not get sick right away, but it decreases your health.

    There are many so called rules in RBTI, but one stands out: Always go by the numbers. I believe most testers have seen the negative impact of refined (sea) salts. Most of them have learned that sea salts are not good for human consumption. And since over 99% of all salts we use are refined salts, it does make sense, but may be an incomplete conclusion.

    I have personally not seen any negative effect with sparingly use of Celtic sea salt. Besides that, as Trix correctly pointed out, the company that worked together with Carey Reams on creating specific RBTI supplements and is still one of the greatest supporters of RBTI today does sell Celtic sea salt. They may not be consultants, but know a lot about RBTI. Also the 2 retreats I have been to (not as a patient) use unrefined salt because they don’t see negative effect of sparingly usage of that.

    Non RBTI related, but still helpful: As I mentioned Dr. Brownstein carefully explains in his book from a hole different perspective why refined salts are bad and why unrefined salts are different."

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  49. Moi, I just wanted to clarify that I'm not picking on you specifically. Anything Challen says, science-wise, is pretty loopy, which is probably why most people don't take RBTI seriously. I honestly have little interest in hearing about Challen's "theories" either. I'm not arguing whether or not RBTI works. But we do need somebody like Matt to explain why.

    I read what William said about salt too, and that adds to the general confusion because Moi SEEMS to be saying the opposite... and what about my fave brand "Real salt", which claims to be unrefined? Which is again, why I want to see what Matt has to offer. He has a way of understanding and summarizing so it all makes sense.

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  50. Bible says: "Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another."

    Isn't Challen religious? Does he just think God is wrong about that?

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  51. people seriously considering this:
    before poping those pills, don't forget to chek your insanity levels first! XD

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  52. I don't think Jesus is giving nutritional advice here. The verse before that says "Everyone will be salted with fire."

    Or in Colossians 4:6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

    I don't think in either he is talking about having literal salt in yourself.

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  53. Can someone enlighten me if Reams himself actually knew how to read the numbers correctly?

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  54. Good to know Lorelei. I will no longer answer your questions. Good luck with your health, that your science-y knowledge can't seem to help.

    No sea salt. The reason is it causes the body to shut down. and yes it shows in the numbers. THis is why people like William DO NOT GET THE RESULTS CHALLEN DOES. Because they can;t read the numbers.

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  55. Hans

    Reams could look at a set of numbers and tell a person precisely where they had a tumor and it's size. He knew the label of the disease they would have or would be developing by looking at a set of numbers.

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  56. So, if lots of RBTI rules come from the Bible:
    Foods that the Bible lists as good to eat:

    Barley---Ruth 2:23
    Bread---Luke 22:19
    Butter---Isaiah 7:22
    Corn---Ruth 2:14; I Samuel 17:17
    Cheese---I Samuel 17:18
    Dates---Genesis 3:2
    Eggs---Job 6:6
    Figs---Numbers 13:23; I Samuel 25:18
    Fruits(All)---Genesis 1:29
    Herbs (Leafy Plants) and Vegetables---Genesis 1:29
    Honey---Deuteronomy 8:8
    Meats---(Beef, Fish,Lamb,Poultry,Venison) Deuteronomy 14; Leviticus 11
    Milk---Isaiah 7:21-22
    Nuts---Genesis 43:11
    Olives and Olive Oil---Leviticus 2:4; Deuteronomy 8:8
    Salt---Leviticus 2:13
    Wheat (Bread, Cereal, Pasta)---Psalm 81:16
    ....................................
    Job 6:6 (Whole Chapter)
    Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
    ...................................
    Do you think they were talking about the 'refined' salt of today...or 'unrefined sea salt'?
    I know, I know...it is all in the 'numbers'....

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  57. NB - Biblical corn is wheat. Zea mays is of American origin and would have been unknown in the rest of the world in Biblical times.

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  58. Again with the defensiveness, Moi!

    I'm not critiquing whether or not it works. Just the so-called theories offered by RBTI-ers as to why it works, which even Matt says are ludicrous. Any theory that claims cells don't divide deserves to be called ludicrous. (Side note, how the hell do fertilized eggs turn into babies?).

    And who says William doesn't get the results? Saying only one person in the whole world is right is just as close-minded as the folks who think Peat is God. Or Paleo is the only way. William is at least trying find convergence between RBTI and other health theories.

    Besides which, without any science, we can only rely on stories of people who are healing - better than they used to be, but not ONE SINGLE testimony of somebody who is in absolute perfect health and has been for years following this program - except for possibly the Waychoff kids. We've only heard Dorie's story of failure, but how many others really did it "right" and it didn't work? We don't know.

    As for my science-y knowledge not helping my health well, hey, a bunch of us have healed to a point from WAP, or Peat, or Schwarzbein, or Atkins, or raw foodism... same as you healing to a degree on RBTI. Many of us felt fantastic the first few months/years on these protocols and were convinced we'd found our own food message from God. Like you have so far. And then things slipped. Like Dorie with RBTI. All you can say is she's doing it wrong, but why? You don't know that for sure. Maybe it's just not going to work for her. Or maybe, like low carbism, it works great at first, and then not so much later. Low carb people yell at their followers that "they're not doing it right" when low-carb fails them. Raw foodists like Freelea say that people were lazy and didn't do it right when 80-10-10 failed them after a while. Your diatribes against William, Dorie, and anybody who questions RBTI are eerily similar, I hate to say.

    Despite raw foodism, WAP, Schwarzbein, and low carbing helping to clear up many of my health issues, almost every Peat idea I tried resulted in massive failure, yet worked remarkably for others. Why? Was I doing it wrong? Jannis most likely would say I was. Is Peat flawed? But then why are the Rubins helping so many?

    Again, why Matt keeps readers - he's willing to separate the wheat from the chaff, and then explain it in a way that makes both the scientists among us and the laypeeps happy. He's been able to find some wheat in 80-10-10, Furman, Atkins, and every other crazy chaffing theory out there. And that's our bible imagery for the day.

    There are many of us here who want RBTI to be a miracle cure. But that doesn't mean we're going to accept everything Challen says as the word of G-d without wanting to figure out why it works. Matt attracts readers with inquiring minds. As others have pointed out, it's a turnoff when you attack anybody who doesn't agree with you or questions the crazy theories, and your defensiveness looks bad on RBTI. I'm sure you're a very nice person who is thrilled with your progress and wants to help others, but it honestly isn't coming across that way.

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  59. By the way, I still want to know WHY sea salt "shuts the body down" as opposed to table salt.

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  60. Hey Matt,

    So the effectiveness of RBTI is due to the powerful remineralization potential. I remember back when you did the milk diet, you stated that it was probably the best way to heal cavities because after drinking nothing but raw milk, you had indestructible teeth. So, my question is, how would you compare the remineralization potential of Challen's RBTI method vs. that of drinking only raw milk?

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  61. Argh, ok, I'm wordy today (my visitors left and I'm all lonely now!).

    Besides using junk food to heal (oh the horrors!), I think the other thing that's making me, at least, so interested in vetting the science, is that the ONLY way to do RTBI is to plunk down a big chunk of change and rely on somebody else to tell you what to do. It makes me want to understand whats going on before I do it.

    For example, at xmas, at dr wanted to put me on the blood type diet, and pay all kinds of money to do tests to determine what to eat. Instead, I got a book from the library, figured it out for free! and decided that the reason some people had success was that it was a basically paleo diet - almost always works at first! I'm so glad I didn't spend the $600 or so it would have cost to get to that point. Since, thanks to Matt, I'm well aware of both sides of the Paleo debate, I could use some science-y stuff to figure out why it worked and if it would be worth it for me. Sure, I would have lost some weight and gained some energy, but I know that it would have mostly likely been hell on me in other ways.

    I'd really like to know WHY I should put my faith in somebody who recommends grits as a source of potassium and eating corn oil. There has to be a reason other than it worked for some people. Hey, some people feel great on crack! Gives them energy, helps them lose weight... maybe I should try that!

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  62. Crack is not on the no-no list so if used accordingly it will improve your numbers. Just remember that in order to absorb most of the potassium in crack you should inject it instead of smoking it.

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  63. Why [can|can't] you eat _____?

    For pork, chocolate, (sea) salt, shellfish, vitamins, supplements, white / wheat bread, marie callendar pies, butter, margarine, soy oil, olive oil, and so on.

    I'm pretty sure the answer to all these questions is: because of the numbers.

    So if Reams & Challen are right about the tests / numbers that promote health ...
    and Challen is right about the diet / habits that produce the numbers ...
    then the theories / explanations are relatively unimportant.

    It would be great to know why the foods do what they do, but Challen has apparently figured out a way around that through testing, recording, trial and error.

    So if you need some science / theory / explanation before you give it a shot - you might have to wait awhile.

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  64. Moi, don't stop posting, because I'm sure there are plenty like me who find your experience and thoughts about it all very interesting.
    I love the idea of 1/2 whole wheat and 1/2 white. I used to be such a 100% whole grain snob.
    No sweets after 2 would take some getting used to. But I guess it's a good idea to get all the sweet things in during the day so you are satisfied with a light dinner.

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  65. Sirch - I agree it probably works, despite the lack of real explanation, but I don't think anybody should be shot down for wanting some kind of real science anyhow! Besides, Matt has already brought light to many points, making sense of RBTI when it seemed like there was no hope. That's why I want HIS input on the salt. No pressure, or anything, Matt :).

    Brock, the real key is to make sure you cook the crack in corn oil, with the appropriate calcium supplement, dependent upon your test numbers for the day. Also, be sure to inject it before 2PM, in 3mg increments every half hour, followed by a pure lemon juice chaser. If this doesn't work for you, discard your syringe and obtain a Kosher syringe.

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  66. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  67. I'm with Brock on the irony-meter thing. But I also see that this is exactly '180' thinking--very hard for me, that's for sure!
    Curious to know the sequel.

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  68. @Tyler
    Most take only some fruits by the end of the day. Coffee is a no-no to anyone with a low Brix because it will decrease the natural alcohol levels in the blood that are used amongst other things to control body temperature. People with high Brix or ‘normal’ Brix can take it, but not too much according to my teachings.

    @ Lorelei aka Hawaiigirl
    First a quote from you about my comment on sea-salts:” Moi SEEMS to be saying the opposite”. She does. But we all explain things the best way we can. And sometimes we forget a little thing. First of all something about refined / unrefined salts: Refined salts are white, or have sometimes added herbs or any other ‘coloring’. Unrefined salts are grayish and look dirty. Any salt that is white, is refined. The RDA for salt here in Europe is 6 grams a day, most use almost 3 times that. Me and my wife use little under 50 grams a year for the both of us, not counting the salts we have when we eat out.
    Salts are needed in every cell in our body, but excess amounts increase the conductivity and add to the ability for the signals from the brain to reach cells beyond the specific cells that it was mend for according to most. But there is one other thing; high salt content in cells decrease the flexibility. And if flexibility of let’s say the veins are decreased, cholesterol in the blood can stick to walls. Cholesterol has a hard time sticking to flexible veins and arteries. That is one of the reasons why some with very high cholesterol have no heart problems, while others with only high (so not even very high) cholesterol die.

    @Kelly
    If you want you can register 3 values of one day (2 hours after meals, not drinking at least half an hour before the test) using www.rbti.info/rbti-log and once you have it in the system, and used the contact form, we will have a look.

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  69. I meant rosefeltc, sorry!

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  70. Thanks William, that helps a little. Still gonna wait to see what the master interpreter has to say!

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  71. William

    I am really mind boggled that you are advertising yourself here. I know who you learned from as well because your methods are EXACTLY the same. Stop it. That man has NO IDEA what he is doing. I know MANY people who left him. If you want to talk in private and possibly explain what you are doing, I'd be happy to. Otherwise keep your discussion on what the rbti says and not advertising yourself.

    Kelly,

    You do not need to do three tests in a day. Anyone who asks for three tests can't read the numbers. I will again say this. I would stay away from this William.

    Do not waste your time running three tests in the day. It is counterproductive!

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  72. Sirch

    You are absolutely correct. We contacted Matt and got him involved with the hopes of him being able to put some of this into words.

    The trouble is, it will never fit into the scientific paradigm that everyone is used to. Never. It has it's own theories. How to prove them? With results.

    Everyone

    I had asked a woman who had actually been healed of breast cancer by Reams when she was 24, to interview with Matt. She backed out the last minute, because she did not want to deal with what comes along with telling people about this. Ha! I can completely understand.

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  73. Salt-

    No major revelations about sea salt vs. refined salt. All I know is that Challen is really adamant about sea salt showing up as a loss of energy in the numbers.

    Basically, any move in the numbers towards the ideal is a GAIN of reserve energy. Any movement away from ideal is a LOSS of energy. That's how these "yes" and "no" foods have been identified. But most only cause problems if you really overdo it.

    So, say for example someone comes into his office. He looks at the person's numbers from 2 weeks prior and the current set of numbers to see if there is a gain of energy. If there is a loss of energy he tries to pinpoint what caused it and when it was caused.

    PUFA/Trans fats -

    This obviously makes my skin crawl. It's not mandatory to eat a lot of PUFA, and I find myself getting the vast majority of my fat from dairy, followed by meat, followed by olive oil on my daily salad. Challen did reach over and smear some margarine on a pancake of mine the other day - bastard!!!!

    The potential problem with these foods of course is that they DON'T cause any immediate problems - making them look harmless when they might not be. But like I said, what you can eat and what you have to eat on this program are very different. No one has to eat corn oil or hydrogenated fat to succeed on the program. But I'm careful not to adapt the program too much to my own personal beliefs. Many make that mistake and end up failing to get improvement in their chemistry.

    Milk diet vs. RBTI-

    I felt horrible on the milk diet, having allergies worsen, physical pain increase, and chest pain intensify. I'm having no such issues on RBTI, and my teeth feel really solid with no pain whatsoever. They also seem to be getting visibly whiter.

    Interestingly, milk will make the body very alkaline - causing congestion and constipation. MacFadden used to say that those that were having problems should eat oranges with the milk. Oranges and orange juice are some of the primary foods that Challen recommends for making an alaline person more acid.

    Other milk diet aficionado's (like Charles Sanford Porter) recommended drinking skim milk because many couldn't digest the fat in the milk - the same reason skim milk is recommended in RBTI.

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  74. Stacey-

    I heard Challen tell someone the other day...

    "Oh I think once you get this chemistry straightened out you won't have any more problems with that gluten."

    Trix-

    I think Challen would pin obesity on gluttony and eating too much food, sweets especially, late at night. I would pin it on overeating as well, but believe that eating too much food is a result of developing an addiction to pornographic and overly palatable modern foods (thus breaking the biological feedback mechanisms that keep weight stable).

    No one overeats on lima beans or hard boiled eggs or cherries. But eating lots of pies, pastries, flavor-enhanced and refined foods does - probably why there are many chubby Challen followers. They are definitely overly-fixated on food here. I find when I eat an unrefined foods diet, food quickly becomes a little inconvenience in my life that I must take time to do before getting back to whatever it was I was doing. Switch over to beef wellington and ice cream sundaes and I suddenly find life to be a distraction from all that enjoyable food out there to eat!

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  75. @Moi,
    OK, this will be my last post. But please state the name of which of my three teachers you mean?

    @everyone else

    Moi said in the RBTI testimonial: “I'm the interviewee.”
    June 28: “I came here to Challen's office to tweak something, and he found the problem and turned it right around. I am watching people come in and out of here allday long”. Why is she there all day long?

    August 3: “Matt is going to interview that woman.he has spoken with her and a meet is planned.”
    August 3 (Wednesday morning early); “I'm at challens office til saturday.”
    Later that day: “Matt has returned. I've just finished teaching him how to properly dip his blonde oreos in milk. He's getting settled and will respond shortly.”

    So these posts clearly not only state that she is there days at a row, but someone also gave me a real hunch in a private mail that she not only works for him, but also got Matt involved. She is the one claiming only Challen can do RBTI. Could someone with a real good story have ‘misused’ someone open-minded like Matt?

    That is why it was logical for me that she was also the only one to know Matt was on vacation.

    Now I will not say anything negative about Matt, because I truly believe he is doing a really good job on informing us, and is really starting to get the fact-fiction of RBTI. But a carefully planned advertising campaign should throw even the best independent health researcher off.

    My first mail to Challen was responded quickly. The second mail took quite a bit longer. Was she behind it? Probably not. I only wanted to order his level 3 and 4 lessons to have another insight. I am open minded an always look from different angles. I have tried many things, RBTI seems to be the best. But because of the many other things I have studied, I always try to make sense of things so I understand what works and why. That is why I tried to answer most of the questions directed to me, but in one occasion I failed terribly. As stated in my first post, I do not know everything.

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  76. But who is Moi? We know she did not use her own name at first, is she more than just a client?
    She contradicts this by saying on August 2; “I'm a client”, but the next day on August 3, she mentioned: “I get no compensation unless I were to charge. I do charge after the fist two tests.”
    Confusing?

    I already proofed her wrong once and did not want to bother any discussions about other topics. But one that needs to be corrected is:
    “RBTI can't work without the lemon”. There are those who are allergic to lemons, and Dr. Reams successfully treated them. Besides that, in the last year of his live, he mentioned that the lemon water routine may be something more for retreats.

    Also: the one teaching for Dr. Reams the last year of his live wanted 3 tests. In Dr. Reams ‘Interfaith Retreat’ 3 or more tests were taken daily I believe. Depending on the body chemistry the numbers will change during the day. For consultants who see their clients, like Challen, they can do with one set, but ALWAYS go by the numbers. And the more you get of them, the better.

    With that said, I also believe I need to point out that on most of her posts, Moi provided excellent information and I believe she really helped quite a lot with finding more information. So, she has been advertizing for Challen. So? If that gets more people to a better health without the serious side effects most will go throw when going to a doctor or practitioner, then that’s OK in my book.

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  77. William

    No secret William. In the interview it says I was there for 16 days. Uuummm.

    Yes I got Matt involved silly. He says that in the first interview. It's right in front of you.

    Matt was on vacation because I was staying in his room at the hotel.

    I went to stay with Challen for two weeks. I don't work for him. I make no money in what I say. I am a client. But there was no secret that I sat in with him interpretting the numbers. I flew home yesterday. But interpret that as you want.

    I am not here to say you are a bad person, but there are some major red flags going up with what you are saying. Go ahead and teach about the rbti, but don't use MY story to advertise yourself. Especially not when your methods match that of the dude who made my seizures worse.

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  78. What about a oil for cooking, like for frying a egg or stir frying vegatables?

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  79. Challen told me to only use Olive oil or Corn oil for cooking.

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  80. Moi,
    It is extremely rude to tell someone else to stop participating in the discussion. It is ironic that you are telling William to do so based on presenting false information when others have shown information you've provided to be incorrect. It's not acceptable to ask people to believe something on faith or only on testimonials. People have a right to critical inquiry and I have detected no intent on William's part to mislead people.

    Also, I do not get the impression that William is advertising. I don't know where you're getting that. He is building a website to serve as an information source and he has worked on some software. I have discussed a little bit the software aspect in email with William since aggregating large amounts of data across a large number of clients could not only help improve RBTI but give it statistical relevance and legitimacy. My understanding from William is that most RBTI practitioners are old and very resistant to this type of technology.

    As for advertising, William in email did not offer RBTI consulting services but recommended in this order:
    Dr. Challen
    Dr. Beddoe
    Dr. Gary Martin

    Not sure if Challen is really his first choice, but he provided description of all three. Here's what he says on Challen: "Outside the blog, I have heard little bad about Challen, and lots of good. As I understood his teachings contain more than enough typo’s, but if that is all, I would be able to live with that. I think he really understands RBTI in a way most don’t."

    Hardly sounds like advertising for himself to me. You on the other hand have been arguing as if you'd like to have your cake and eat it too. Take the example Simon pointed out in the "RBTI Testimonial" blog post"

    One is your super defensive attitude when people have been trying to find out more about RBTI.

    Example:

    You say sea salt will kill you --> people ask why --> you state incorrect facts about sea salt --> someone corrects you --> you get defensive

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  81. So far, I am feeling worse before I am getting better. That may be normal. But I may still have a supplement with some porcine in the gelatin caps.

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  82. Wow! I think many of you have relinquished your common sense. Processed food + mineral supplements may get your numbers in line short term but it is not likely healthful long term. The reason people often do well on one diet and then it stops working or they get different or worse symptoms is because many of the diet cures fix one imbalance and create another. That's the problem with isolated vitamin or mineral supplements. Shilajit might be a better option for plant based minerals and co-factors, like Fulvic Acid. Fruit is easy to digest, has lots of minerals in ideal proportions and can easily be assimilated. Adding a little Shilajit to water can help replace what is lacking or has been altered in our soil. On the salt issue, too much or too little is it not good. I suspect if your diet is raw vegan and you are not doing extreme sports or work, you get plenty of salt and if you are eating processed food you are likely getting too much. If you are not eating a diet that our bodies are naturally physiologically adapted to, i.e. fruits and vegetables mostly, you are complicating matters and adding many variables and inviting health challenges. btw...there is a guy doing RBTI in Northern California that is raw vegan and getting great results for himself and others. P.S. I encourage William to continue providing his perspective.

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  83. i am sure i have missed this in the discussion, but wondering if Challen has clients measure PH of urine? if so, what does he recommend for improving Ph numbers? i am guessing it is totally individual but thought i would ask as i am seeing a practitioner now who has me measuring my morning urine PH and so far mine is very acidic. from what i can tell, he is going to recommend a more "alkaline" diet which he believes is mostly raw veggies and fruits, small amounts of meat (chicken, turkey, salmon) and grains (amaranth/quinoa) and yogurt, plus food combining. has anyone studied this PH issue in depth and can give me your opinion about it including those that are not from an RBTI perspective? normally i would disregard the type of rec my practitioner is making based on what i know about nutrition, but the guy is 62 years old and has not been sick since he was 26, and i am interested to see what Challen has to say about urine PH. thanks!

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  84. Why do I feel Challen is pulling peoples legs?I get a weird feeling at his website with the obvious money pull.It states heavenly water and whatnot but you have to spend cash to get any info.Then he throws in a magical quality with some people saying only he can make it work.The thing is though it sounds like the many diets that strive to make the body PH stable like this website talks about.The difference is that there is no magic where only one man knows the secret instead you test your own urine and saliva PH and adjust the acid alkaline foods in your body to compensate.This reminds me of when my mother followed the Spanish vitamin guru who tricked so many Spanish speaking people into buying his vitamins and at the dosages he prescribed....and they were EXPENSIVE!

    http://articlesofhealth.blogspot.com/2006/10/understanding-and-testing-ph-of-urine.html

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  85. Lisa, contact Glen Caulkins at 949-581-9191. He has figured out the whole element game and has a simple protocol to get pH in line and to get you remineralized.

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  86. I don't know what to make of all this RBTI stuff. Very interesting, though. The refined food thing actually does make some sense. I remember reading about deer at the Grand Canyon who ate junk food tourists gave them. It created health problems, but once they were adapted to the junk food, they couldn't be switched back to their natural diet. Their bodies could no longer tolerate it.

    So, maybe the same is true of humans. The million dollar question is: if you heal with processed food + minerals, can you then tolerate eating less refined food?

    Also, why can't you eat refined but unprocessed stuff like pasta with veggies and real white bread (from flour, yeast, salt), home-made pot-pies with white flour, rather than super-processed stuff? Or I guess you probably can, but don't have to.

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  87. Aaron

    I asked William to not use my testimoial to advertise himself. I did not say to leave. Reread please. You'll notice I said "Go ahead and teach about the rbti, but don't use MY story to advertise yourself." I am very specific about this because of where I have been. Take it or leave it.

    Certain things he has stated make my skin crawl, because I know people, many, including myself who have been hurt by other rbti practitioners and their ideas. That is great he is out to teach about the RBTI, but I wouldn't do a thing Beddoe reccomends. Beddoe will have a person on over 100 supplements a day.

    The answer is in the diet.

    I did not state incorrect facts about sea salt. You guys are just looking at it from a different perspective. And what you 'think' is fact is actually theory, as well as what I am saying is just theory. I did not say it was a fact. RBTI stands for Reams Biological THEORY of Ionization.

    What bothers me is that I get asked a question, and immediately told I am false. There is no discussion. No "why would it be this way?" I get annoyed.

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  88. @anomymous and Lisa

    In order to remineralize you need to fix more than the urine ph.

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  89. The more one strays from what nature intended, the more you are inviting issues. This is not complicated but many make it so because of our addictions. Animals don't concern themselves with formulas and balancing anything.

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  90. What did nature intend and how do you have the authority to speak for nature?

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  96. Moi

    "I did not state incorrect facts about sea salt."

    This is you stating opinion as fact about sea salt.

    "Think of it this way. Go to the ocean and dip in a cup, and drink up!"

    Ridiculous theory.

    "Yeah in sea salt you are getting all that."

    Incorrect fact.

    "Sea salt has seven different salts."

    Incorrect fact.

    "They are CAUSTIC."

    Incorrect fact.

    "Another thought. The titanic they say is being coroded away by the sea water."

    Correct fact.

    "If the salts of the ocean can disolve steel, what is it doing in you?"

    Ridiculous theory.

    "Plus you get to eat all that metal. It's disolved into the water, and therefore into unrefined sea salt."

    Incorrect fact.

    Your facts are wrong and your theories make no sense.

    The compositional analysis of sea salt is NOT theory, it is fact.

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  97. But Simon, your theories or facts, however you want to call it, makes no sense. I can't understand how sea salt is beneficial? No one has proven that it is, yet many people here take it as gospel truth. Explain to me how sea salt is ok, without putting stupid studies up. I refuse to read a study that uses the same kind of science that they have used to 'Prove' that depression is a deficiency of prozac. With that method, you can say anytthing you want.

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  98. Simon

    I will however agree with you. What I say does not make sense. So no arguement there. I don't understand it it. I can just see it in the numbers and see it working.

    So you can have the win on that arguement.

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  99. You are missing the point. I am not saying sea salt is beneficial. I am also not saying it is bad.

    I am merely saying that you did indeed state incorrect facts about sea salt.

    This is not a theory. This is fact.
    What you said about can be disproved by taking a look at a compositional analysis of any sea salt and a basic knowledge of chemistry. That is fact.

    What is so hard to understand here?

    If you actually read my posts properly you'd know that I have never questioned that RBTI is giving you good results. I have never questioned sea salt's effects on the numbers.

    You are putting words into my mouth for no good reason.

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  100. What a load of bollocks.

    A few people arguing over who is following the right leader, fuck this.

    This method does interest me, the test, the numbers, choose certain foods and minerals to bring numbers in and heal.

    It sounds simple and powerful.

    Matt, the quicker you can boil all this crap down to that simple formula, the quicker you will get respect for bringing this RBTI thing up.

    Currently all I am reading is a lot of gas.

    William, if anything seems to be the only one who seems to be making any logical sense here.

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  101. Lorelei: "Hey, some people feel great on crack! Gives them energy, helps them lose weight... maybe I should try that!"

    Maybe that should be my next approach, if RBTI doesn't work out? Screw the meds, try crack! I think I'm only half-joking, I'm so tired of feeling this bad.

    I'm going to try improving my and my husband's numbers first, since we have obvious problems the kids don't. If it works out all dreamy, then I'll definitely include the kids. The exception is the baby, who I'm nursing exclusively and is constipated, congested and has eczema. I'm doing this out of desperation for her too.

    I understand the theories are quacky or non-existent, but I've tried enough theories to begin to care more about how it works.

    If I could add a splash of "this will definitely be bad for you after 20 years of use" (like corn oil, for example), then I will.

    But it's not worth it to me anymore to feel like crap while I search for the Holy Grail of health, and then pass the torch on to my kids to keep looking.

    I don't think that RBTI explains the entire picture, but if it gets me feeling better, I'm all for it. I can fill in the gaps of missing/incorrect knowledge as I go.

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  102. Simon, you missed my point as well. I said I don't know. I say what Reams said. I said it doesn't make sense. I said I don't understand. But I get jumped on for saying it shows in the numbers. Chill out.

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  103. The quote of the day on my word game site is this "Intellectuals have a preference for learning things rather than experiencing them." I thought it was appropriate to the topic at hand. I'm just thankful there are intellectual guinea pigs like Matt who are willing to do both - learn and experience - and then report findings.

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  104. Matt,

    If alkalinity causes constipation does acidity cause diarrhea? That might have been why that happened to me a while ago when I was eating Peat-style with lots of orange juice, cheese and beef and not a lot of fruits & veggies. I had also stopped drinking milk at that time because I lost my raw milk source - so maybe the milk had been the equalizer and once that was gone I was way too acidic.

    That is interesting that he found milk to be alkalinizing. The info Challen has for pH tests could be very helpful because there's a lot of conflicting information out there on which foods have an acid or alkaline effect on the body. I would be interested to see an acid / alkaline effect food list according to Challen -- especially if there are any other surprises.

    I'd also like to know if his data is consistent about which diseases occur in which (acid vs. alkaline) environments. For example, I've have read that cancer can only spread in acidic conditions. I wonder if his data supports that.

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  105. Lee-

    Well said. But this is not a game of who can make the most sense.

    Danyelle-

    Here are some findings for you. I watched a grown man unable to speak as he held back tears today. His wife had 3 large tumors and was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer. On a website I perused it said this about stage 4 breast cancer...

    "The woman whose breast cancer has metastasized or who has been diagnosed initially at Stage IV must live with the reality that her breast cancer can no longer be cured, and that the disease is very likely to take her life."

    She just went in for a mammogram and the man said...

    "All clear. Come back in a year. The doctor said it just like that."

    When someone who apparently guides people quickly, easily, and reliably to such results - unmatched in any field of health, nutrition, medicine, or alternative medicine, tells you that iodized salt is better than sea salt, you STFU and stop eating sea salt.

    Lisa-

    Saw a family of 4 vegans today. All had very acidic pH's. Good luck with those fruits and vegetables. I'd rather take Challen's Cal2 supplement and eat cheese.

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  106. Finally got through to Challen's office (the phone is constantly busy!) and ordered my kit. :o)

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  107. Matt

    So are you saying that iodized salt is fine? This salt thing is REALLY confusing.

    When he says no sweets after 2pm, does this include fruit?

    Does cheese have to be low fat, such as cottage cheese, or is any cheese fine.

    TIA

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  108. Guessing cheese would be a personal numbers thing...he told me not to eat cheese.

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  109. Sirch-

    That is correct, generally-speaking. Of course, if you eat a lot of roughage you can loosen your bowels even if you do have a high pH, just from all that half-digested food being passed through there in huge quantities.

    I think he might agree that acidity and cancer are synonymous. But the body progresses through the various ranges as it gets lower and lower in health. A range is 6.4, B range is up to 7.4, C range is slightly acidic, D range is above 7.4, and E range is very acidic.

    I imagine some of the alkalinizing diets do help some people go from being slightly acidic to slightly alkaline, which would be an improvement. But it is a blunt approach.

    The "sugar" number is also claimed to be important because it represents how well your blood "carries oxygen." Any major deviation from 1.5 and your system "isn't carrying the oxygen properly."

    Of course, restoring oxygen has been known for ages to get the body out of anaerobic glycolysis - the type of metabolism that occurs in cancer cells due to lack of oxygen.

    Peat's holy grail of course is to restore and/or preserve a strong oxidative metabolism - keeping it away from a lactic acid producing anaerobic state.

    Challen's primary alkalinizing foods are cheese and bananas. Primary acidifying foods are citrus, pears, prunes - like orange juice for sure.

    But the mineral supplement (CAL 2 to increase pH, calcium lactate to lower it) are the primary drivers of the pH up and down.

    But you have to understand how delicate the whole set of numbers is. For example, if someone has a low pH and low sugars, increasing their pH can be very dangerous, as increasing pH will lower the refractometer reading. Likewise, lowering the refractometer reading by drinking lots of water will have a tendency to make them more alkaline.

    The sugar reading and the urine pH tend to move in opposite directions.

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  110. Trix-

    The cheese is individual. If you have a high pH you don't eat cheese. And by cheese he means hard cheese, like cheddar. You can still have cottage cheese and milk. He will also tell you not to eat bananas. And you will take calcium lactate and not cal2. That's all. Pretty simple. If you go acidic you'll switch to eating cheese and bananas and taking cal 2.


    Mishkam-

    Cheese doesn't need to be low fat. No sweets after 2pm includes fruits, but hypoglycemics can eat sweets any time they need to eat them. You can have some starches after 2pm. Like corn on the cob, toast, or yams if you don't have high sugars.

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  111. On salt-

    I can't imagine anything on earth more insignificant in the grand scheme of things than the type of salt you use. I mean come on, we have people on here that have switched from zero carb to vegan and back again who are going on and on making a big fuss over sea salt. Live a little.

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  112. STFUing about salt now :)

    Still, haven't other gurus had miracle cancer cures too? I'm thinking raw meat and feces guy here. Or simply laying on of hands. Just saying you hear miracle stories across the spectrum. Not saying RBTI isn't wonderful, just... maybe she was a miracle waiting to happen anyhow? Are we hearing the same miracle breast cancer story over and over, or are there that many with Challen?

    Don't get me wrong. I want to believe. I also don't want to waste $400+. It's that or new tires next month. I think crack is cheaper... or I can use my thrifty spirit and make some crystal meth myself. It would make a great homeschool chemistry lesson. (I really hope y'all know I'm kidding).

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  113. Quack Watch!

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/reams.html

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  114. Anonymous: "Reams could look at a set of numbers and tell a person precisely where they had a tumor and it's size. He knew the label of the disease they would have or would be developing by looking at a set of numbers."

    How does this fit in with Matt saying that only Challen knows how to read the numbers correctly? If Reams knew how to do it, why are all of his other students "guessers?" Why was Challen a "guesser" until he "cracked the code?" Why didn't Reams teach anyone if he knew how to do it?

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  115. @Lorelei:

    "Still, haven't other gurus had miracle cancer cures too? I'm thinking raw meat and feces guy here."

    Cancer healing, large-scale tissue regrowth, Aajonus has done it all.

    "Or simply laying on of hands. Just saying you hear miracle stories across the spectrum."

    What I've been saying exactly.

    "I also don't want to waste $400+."

    Don't the water distiller, tons of lemons, the juicer you'll probably need, the overpriced supplements, the extra cost for processed crapfood like those pies... And don't forget the time that making all that lemonade will take.

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  116. Hans, have you given any thought to why you're such a nattering nabob of negativity? Do you need a hug?

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  117. Being on quackwatch is like a badge of honor.

    WAPF, Price-Pottenger, Broda Barnes, and American Biological Dental Association are all on there as untrustworthy. I'd say that's good company, personally.

    I have my own citrus trees and a Champion juicer, so I'm halfway there on costs!

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  118. In the literary world, we call it "suspension of disbelief." The onus is up to the reader, not the writer, to achieve it. It is the willingness of the reader to overlook the limitations of the medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises. Suspension of disbelief is an essential ingredient for any kind of storytelling.

    I'm not suggesting that the people who tried RBTI and failed did not "believe" in it enough (I don't wish to join either side; I'm happy for those this is working for and I'm happy for those who have the balls to question it; I'm Switzerland); I'm merely stating that the undercurrent of these discussions of what can't be understood seem to fall in this category.

    Anybody else consider the copper aspect of the diet? I hate to keep bringing it up, but it's very similar to a diet my alt doctor put me on a while ago for excess copper symptoms. Any thoughts?

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  119. hey guys, i'm having a slight problem i was wondering if you could help me narrow down the solution.

    i have been taking blackstrap molasses for the past couple weeks and i've been seeing mixed results. the past week i've been taking 1 table spoon per day.

    on one hand, it cures my sleeping problems. completely flat out fixes it. this is something i've been looking for an answer to for a couple years now, and on top of that it makes my dreams very vivid. i've also gained muscle mass and in general felt great mentally.

    on the other hand, i get these random aches and pains mostly on my feet, hands, and biceps. in general my muscles seem to tire quicker, my skin becomes super sensitive and somewhat itchy (particularly on the nose), my tongue tingles, and if i take more than 2 tablespoons the corners of my mouth turns red and chaff.

    I feel that I'm making up for some minerals I seem to be lacking, and most definitely getting too much of others. I feel I'm getting way too much calcium. My diet, in general, consists of potatoes, 73/27 ground beef, and the occasional fruit/fruit juice for whenever I'm in the mood as well as the table spoon of blackstrap. The past 2 days I've been foregoing the molasses. I also drink alcohol 2 days a week on average.

    Based on my research the only culprit I can identify is a lack of copper.

    any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm willing to buy supplements but am tight on money for the next couple weeks and don't want to waste any funds if possible.

    -Anonymous

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  120. I'm still curious about the safety of drinking distilled water, especially from plastic bottles. I know Dr. Mercola thinks its a bad idea as does David Getoff from the Price-Pottenger Foundation.

    (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/12/18/distilled-water-interview.aspx)

    Does supplementing with the recommended minerals counteract these supposed "dangers"?

    Can a patient get by with drinking Reverse Osmosis water instead?

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  121. T don't post often, but had to chime in on the sea salt issue. I've heard interviews with Dr Hal Huggins, a leading alternative dentist, who does detoxes of people with serious medical conditions. Along with remedial dental work he has the patients follow dietary guidelines. He found that he couldn't help people who consumed sea salt. He said regular processed salt was ok,but he preferred pickling salt, which is plain sodium chloride with no additives(except iodized version). I was pretty skeptical of his reasoning and I love Celtic salt, but I have a crippling condition and with Reams/Challen coming to the same conclusion---goodbye,sea salt and hello pickling and regular salt.

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  122. Stange that you say sea salt isn't good. For a long time I often had heavy and tired feeling legs, especially in the evening wich made it difficult to sleep.
    It was often suggested this is caused by too much salt or not enough of some other mineral.
    I tried very low salt, supplementing other minerals (magnesium, zinc and calcium) but the only thing that worked was sea salt instead of regular salt. I havent had the problem since...

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  123. Matt-

    do peoples body temp improve with all this? do people with already ideal temps generally have good/ideal numbers?.

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  124. This thread is probably done, but...

    Good call Lorelei on Quackwatch. I noticed a while back they had fear of fluoridated water as one of their things. That and a couple others made me start to wonder who is behind Quackwatch. Good to know Price and Pottenger are on there.

    As to spending money on a "cure". $500 to $1000 is nothing. I can't imagine any alternative health practitioner that isn't going to cost you something in that range. Not just for themselves, but for all the tests, supplements, etc. you're going to need.

    But if you've got some health condition that's difficult to describe or isn't well understood, what do you do?

    Also, Matt, I would like to know the answer to terpol's question.

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  125. Lanie, I love your question about copper because it helped me crystallize my own thoughts about my interest in all of this -- how does any of this affect neurobiology?

    I was quite interested in Matt's comments on his own feelings of sociability after having started taking Challen's advise. And Moi's dialogues with various posters here have been fascinating from that standpoint.

    Pondering copper has helped me ponder what I consider the bottom line -- is it feeling/looking better? A life well lived? If my numbers are perfect but my brain turns into a fuzzball or my creativity takes a nosedive, will I be satisfied? Thanks, Lanie, for giving me something new to think about!

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  126. Matt, thank you for answering my question. Also thank you for your information on hypoglycemia and water. That one tip has already improved the quality of my life considerably. I really appreciate it.

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  127. I'm bouncing back and forth between getting excited that I might finally get to be a normal person again, and thinking that everything else I've tried for the past 10 years has failed so why should this work. :-/

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  128. Stephanie C- you couldn't have said it any better. my exact thoughts!

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  129. I agree about less water and hypoglycemia.
    I was told by a few different doctors to keep drinking LOTS and LOTS of water for some issues related to adrenal fatigue, meanwhile I would wake up 4x a night and have to eat, my days, very uncomfortable and full of nothing but constant blood sugar maintenance til about 6 or 7 and I'd finally be ok for a few hours.
    I spoke with Challen and he said to cut back on water, first thing. Did that, feeling much better already

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  130. @ Brock

    Not sure what you're here for, to get recognition of your masculinity or something? Whatever happened to your "neolithic diet?"

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  131. How about someone answer my question?

    Reams had cracked the code but didn't teach it? Why?

    Reams hadn't cracked the code, but Challen has - how was Reams then able to help people?

    Which one is it?


    The thing about copper is very interesting. Heavy metal toxicity is a big issue, so that plus balancing blood sugar might explain the success?

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  132. Wow, these comments are all over the place. I actually called and talked to Challen. He recommended that I purchase the test kit and start testing. I will do that as soon as I stop traveling in a few months.
    I purchased his book "The only health guide you'll ever need." If you are interested in RBTI, I recommend you purchase this book. It is very informative and answers a lot of questions on this blog.
    Hans, with regards to your previous comment, Reams created RBTI. Challen worked and studied under him for many years.
    I like the idea that RBTI can tell you where your salts, sugars, pH etc are and how you can eat to get more healthy. As you numbers change, so does your diet until you are where you should be. I can't think of any other plan that offers so much granularity. Both Reams and Challen have done wonderful things for people that modern medicine can't. I think its worth looking into.

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  133. Just have to speak up on the 'miracle' stage 4 breast cancer story. Stage 4 means the cancer has metastacized. Which means it has already spread to one or several other sites (in breast cancer, most commonly the bones, liver, brain). A MAMMOGRAM is NOT going to be the "all clear" test to indicated that metastatic cancer has been eradicated. Seriously Matt!!!

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  134. Does anyone here have your own kit and live within about 2 hours of Los Angeles? I'd be willing to drive that far if you would be willing to test my and my husband's numbers. I'd like to call our numbers in to challen just to get an initial idea of how we are doing and what he recommends. Husband is on board with buying a testing kit, but we' like to get a little more info first.

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  135. whoops, double post of sorts haha.

    Anyone know if Challen knows anything about how to alleviate difficulty falling asleep? I get that it's all very "person specific", but seeing as there is a no no list, there must be some general thing(s) I can go buy until I can get a refractometer.

    -Anonymous

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  136. This is a great site, answers a lot of those science-y questions. As far as I can tell, anyway. I am more of an intuitive-y person.
    http://optimallivingfoods.com/content/rbti

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  137. I was wondering the same as team smith and I live in the Chicago area. If anyone can test me that lives in my area, I would be willing to drive to where you are.

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  138. @Moi,
    I think it's awesome that you are doing well- For me, I have been in chronic pain for so long that if someone told me a Marie Callendar pie would take it away, I would do it in a second. Who cares? The WAPF way has done nothing but make me FAT!!!

    So, could you tell me what Challen told that man with the pain in his foot? I know that his advice is very individual, I'm just getting a general sense of how this works.
    Thanks,
    Deedle

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  139. Hi Everyone!



    Matt, I had a teacher in high school who was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer and as she stood in front of us one day in class, she told us how she thought her life was over before she could even have babies. Not only did she survive her cancer, but right after she was declared cancer free she found out she was pregnant. She now has two beautiful healthy children. Remember even God has secret codes that even the most brilliant men can't crack!

    Also, I just want to say that my heart goes out to all of you who are searching for the "answers" to help cure you and your loved ones. I was diagnosed with Osteoporosis(Due to a vitamin D level of 6) last year at the age of 29 and had suffered 12 compression fractures in my back because of it. My spine was crumbling under me and I lost 3.5 inches in my vertebra which caused most of my ribs to get caught and locked within each other. Any time I would go to raise my arms I would pop my ribs and get more fractures. It got so bad I couldn't even hold my body up because my spine had no support. I had the spine of an 85 year old and all the specialists said there was nothing they could do for me and no surgeries that could be preformed. I have fought tooth and nail to get "Me" back. I have read tons of books on diets of every kind from Paleo, raw Paleo, 80/10/10, WAPF, vegetarian, vegan, raw vegan, alkaline/acidic diet and the list goes on. I have scoured the net and have read practically every study, every blog and every post! I kept looking for someone to give me the answers because I was so afraid for my life and my bones and they all seemed to have the answers to the perfect cure! When this injury happened and with all the contradicting information I started to think that no one on this planet had the "answers" for me. I then realized only one person had the answers for me. Me! I needed to have some faith in nature and myself and what my body could do. The answers are within ourselves. We need not look any further. We are so stressed out about how to fix whats ailing us that we don't realize how much stress that in itself is putting on our bodies. Stop listening to everyone else and start listening to that inner voice nature gave you to protect you. We get to the point where we don't even see food as food anymore. We see numbers and theories and micros and macros. We are all a bunch of stress balls!:) There is a mind/body connection. Just think when your nervous or stressed how it affects your stomach and digestion. Some people will over eat and some won't eat at all when stressed. Just think how all this stress is translating to our brains. I would even suspect that the moms that are breast feeding and their babies are having bowel problems, may be due to the babies feeling the mom's stressed and nervous energy and it affects the baby too! It makes me sad to hear everyone talk about the SAD diet and how it is used as the lowest grade standard. Like we as Americans are doomed just because we are Americans and our parents didn't know any better and basically did us all in with feeding us the SAD diet. Like our Genetics are so bad and we have no hope of ever improving now. As if we are the island of misfit toys or something. I think our biggest problem is that we as Americans are so stressed out. I am proud to be an American. We are hard workers and have a lot to offer. We are not just products of a SAD diet! I don't believe for a second that we can't heal the damage that has occurred. All the specialist told me I was doomed and would not get better. I just climbed the mountainous hills of New Hampshire this morning and did 6 miles. How's that for doomed and never getting better! Just believe in you and nature. They will never let you down. Just have some faith and relax. I have faith in you all and wish you all peace!

    Thank you everyone for letting me share!

    Jennifer

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  140. @Robs

    "Hans, with regards to your previous comment, Reams created RBTI. Challen worked and studied under him for many years."

    Then why don't Reams' other students know how to read the numbers? Why did Challen only learn how to do it five years ago, and not while he was studying under Reams? Doesn't anyone else see a problem with this?

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  141. @ nature anon,

    I agree, but it is also certain that what you eat influences your gut flora, and your gut flora influences your thinking.

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  143. On the whole processed vs. unprocessed. My digestion has been bad since being a baby, so I think I know a bit on the subject. In my experience, processed food is ANYTHING but easily digestible. On the contrary, it lies in the stomach forever and just won't digest. If I eat processed crap, I have food in my stomach 24/7 and am still feeling hungry. It also makes me think about food all the time (like Matt said,) so I have to fight off temptations to overeat all of the time. Not exactly what I call healthy.

    So.. there is no way that I'll go on a refined crapfood diet, even if it supposedly causes all kinds of miraculous healings. Refined food, on the other hand may be easier to digest in a certain context, though for example white rice has caused me heartburn much more easily. But in my experience, whole foods, especially whole grains don't digest well for people because they make some "mistakes" in eating them. Whole grains are "powerful" food - they can make you feel very good, very balanced, but they also don't combine very well with certain foods. Most importantly, they don't fit in a diet that also contains refined sugar or generally in a diet that contains a lot of sweet foods, because those blunt the amylase production in the mouth. One has to be consistent. Junk doesn't fit in a whole foods diet. Better to eat a refined diet if you want to eat junk. But why would you? On a whole foods diet, I don't feel any cravings for junk as long as my blood sugar is balanced. This is most likely due to the positive effect whole foods have (if eaten correctly) on the gut flora.

    Then, mixing too much protein and whole-foods carbohydrates (especially whole grains) is very hard on the digestion. Something like the WAPF diet where you eat huge quantities of fat, meat, and whole grains together are plain suicidal in if your digestion is sub-optimal. The good old food combining rules really help in this context.

    Personally I don't eat gluten if I can avoid it, especially no bread (noodles seem to be less problematic.) There is enough evidence that gluten is bad for you, and most people with a problematic digestion seem to do much better without it. Dairy is also a problem for many including me.

    Also, don't overeat. Watch your energy, weight etc., you will find out how much you need. I find using fruit in between meals helpful to balance blood sugar, also eating a protein meal for lunch with not so many starchy veggies helpful for that. Why you need a refractometer, I don't really understand. If you feel the symptoms, why do you need it to confirm what you already know?



    On a sidenote: While generally whole grains and nuts don't digest well if eaten with refined sugar, or even if one's diet contains refined sugar, there seems to be a thing about raw nuts and seeds, they don't go well with salt. So I recommend to try eating them in small quantities only and eat never eat them with salt. Also be sure that they have left the stomach completely before you eat anything salty.

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  145. I think everyone is just very different.
    The last time I remember feeling healthy, strong, and confidant that my body knew how to do it's job was back when I lived in the Midwest and ate, to the best of my knowledge, a healthy diet as my mother had taught me.
    Basically the food pyramid.
    Lots of wheat bread, meat, fruits and veggies, milk with every meal, with some mac n cheese and burger king thrown in now and again.
    Ice cream, and cheesecake, apple pie.
    It was after I moved out to the west coast on my own and started listening to all my vegan and raw food friends telling me how bad I was eating that I started to get sick and have digestive problems.
    I'm pretty sure it was "healthy food" and thinking too hard about it altogether that made me sick.
    What works for one person is not necessarily going to be the best for everyone.

    August 12, 2011 11:30:00 AM MDT

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  146. Interesting that we never see the face of this individual on the video or hear her name ... I think I know why

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